INTERVIEW 1 ~ TAPE 1

 

Person interviewed:      Michael John Smith

 

Place of interview:        Paddington Green Police Station

 

Date of interview:         8th August 1992

 

Time commenced:        15:05   Time concluded:           15:31

 

Other persons present: Detective Inspector Martin Nicholson

                                   Detective Sergeant Gary Pepe

 

Pepe:  This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Gary Pepe, Detective Sergeant attached to New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is Ö

 

Nicholson:  Detective Inspector Nicholson, also attached to New Scotland Yard.

 

Pepe:  We are in the interview room of Paddington Police Station. I am interviewing, if you could state your name sir.

 

Smith:  My name is Michael Smith of 48A Burton Road, Kingston upon Thames.

 

Pepe:  Lovely, thank you. You are entitled to speak to a solicitor at any time Mr Smith, day or night.

 

Smith:  I donít need a solicitor.

 

Pepe:  Well, Iíve got to give you the right Michael, itís free of charge and it is your entitlement.

 

Smith:  Well, I donít think this is going to get very much further, so I donít think ...

 

Pepe:  Ok, are you happy to be interviewed without a solicitor at this present moment in time?

 

Smith:  Why not, yes, course I am.

 

Pepe:  There is no other person in the room. The date is the 8th August 1992. It is a Saturday. The time by my watch is 5 minutes past 3.

 

Smith:  Well, in which case Iím getting a bit worried about the time, can you. Ö


 

 

 

Pepe:  Ok, so itís 5 minutes past 3. At the conclusion of the interview I will give you a notice, hereís a form here, which will explain how you can have access to the tapes which are in the machine at the moment. Ok, so you can have your own copy. When you were arrested you have certain rights.

 

Smith:  Hang on, I didnít think I was arrested. I think you brought me in for questioning, or something.

 

Pepe:  Well youíve been arrested, thatís why ...

 

Smith:  I donít agree with that.

 

Pepe:  Youíve been arrested.

 

Smith:  I think thatís been portrayed wrongly.

 

Pepe:  Michael listen to me, what I am saying to you is you have been arrested.

 

Smith:  On what charge?

 

Pepe:  When any person is arrested they have certain rights, Ok, the right to say nothing, that is, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be used as evidence. Now I want you to understand that, that any answer that you give to me is at your own free will.


 

 

 

Smith:  Of course it is, yes.

 

Pepe:  Youíve been arrested, you havenít been charged with any offence.

 

Smith:  Well I donít want this going on the record because Iím trying to go at the moment for, er, citizenship in New Zealand, I want to emigrate.

 

Pepe:  Oh do you.

 

Smith:  So I donít need this on my records, so I donít need a charge.

 

Pepe:  Right. The reason for the delay is the fact that when any person is arrested, all the officers concerned have to make notes about exactly what did occur, and later on Iíll show you those notes so that you are exactly clear as to what is being alleged against you.

 

Smith:  Right.

 

Pepe:  Ok, um. Basically, have you any questions of me first of all?

 

Smith:  Well, I mean, I donít know, you mentioned the charge, I donít know any, what evidence is being presented against me.

 

Pepe:  Right.


 

 

 

Smith:  Or what Iíve supposed to have done.

 

Pepe:  Right.

 

Smith:  Why wasnít this, didnít come up before, I mean itís never Ö I think the reason is because Iíve been after a job.

 

Pepe:  This has taken you completely by surprise?

 

Smith:  Yes it has. Iíve been after a job for, um, quite a high level job in Ferranti at Milton Keynes, I know they were interested in me.

 

Pepe:  Right

 

Smith:  People, people.

 

Pepe:  What do you do?

 

Smith:  Iím a quality assurance engineer.

 

Pepe:  O, right, yeah.

 

Nicholson:  Could you explain what that work deals with?

 

Smith:  The work deals with, um, investigating problems in a companyís quality assurance system. Iím an auditor mainly, I travel around different departments discussing, um, administrative details with people about how they keep records, how they organise their project management, and that sort of thing. It is more management of, um, the projects rather than technical details.


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Is this any particular, is this with any company you perform that?

 

Smith:  ... sorry , I can perform that in any company?

 

Nicholson:  You perform that in any company?

 

Smith:  Itís quite a well sought after, uh, discipline.

 

Nicholson:  This is a Quality Assurance Ö?

 

Smith:  Well, auditor/engineer. I mean, Iím specialising in auditing, which means that Iíve had to pass an exam, and Iím only a couple of audits off being accredited as an official auditor, so that I could work within a company that gives accreditation to quality systems, such as BS5750, etc.

 

Nicholson:  I take it youíve got qualifications?

 

Smith:  Yeah. No, Iíve been made redundant. I mean, that was a problem. I guess this is what this has come out of. I was made redundant, which happened a week ago yesterday.

 

Nicholson:  You are working for whom then?

 

Smith:  For Hirst Research Centre, which is in Wembley.

 

Nicholson:  What do they deal with?


 

 

 

Smith:  They deal mainly with research for the G.E.C., into materials and a bit of chemistry, and semi-conductors, which has now gone more or less. Itís a mixture of projects and I wouldnít like to say they specialise in anything, itís very, um ...

 

Nicholson:  Can I come back and remind you, and really the purpose of this interview was to take you from the time of your arrest, up to the time of your arrival at the police station, and for you to look at the notes that we have compiled since that time.

 

Smith:  Thatís not helping me, is it?

 

Nicholson:  Well, what I really want you to do is look at these first. Letís get this out of the way ...

 

Smith:  Ok, look, I was walking down the road, I donít know which of you shouted out the window, ďare you Michael SmithĒ - I said ďyesĒ. Why shouldnít I say yes? Next thing I know, somebodyís trying to man-handle me and put handcuffs on me. I didnít know if you were police or not. I mean, thereís no marked car.

 

Pepe:  What were you doing immediately ... Where have you just ...?

 

Smith:  Iíd just been down to the shop to, er, get a newspaper.

 

Pepe:  Yeah.

 

Smith:  I was walking back.

 

Nicholson:  What, youíd just left home?


 

 

 

Smith:  Yeah Iíd left home. I went round the block and, er Ö

 

Pepe:  So you literally just got up then?

 

Smith:  Yeah, in fact Iíd been making love to my wife only minutes before. I mean, she had to go to a back appointment, because sheís got a damaged disc, and she has to go to an osteopath once every 3 months or so, I suppose.

 

Nicholson:  Right.

 

Smith:  And she was a bit late to get out of that, and I said look, hang on, Iím just going to get a paper and, er, Iíll be back in a few minutes.

 

Nicholson:  Thatís all you did, you just popped out and Ö?

 

Smith:  Yeah, I walked around and, er, I came back, and that I thought Ė well, Iíd just catch her, because I see her car was there - I thought well, just say hope it goes well, as I was coming back, and then you guys ...

 

Nicholson:  Right.

 

Smith:  Thatís why I didnít want her to see from the window, because I know she needs to relax before she goes to these back appointments, because itís bad for her back.


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Ok, can I come back to the other point. What we have here are the notes that we made, compiled from the time that we arrested you, from the time I arrested you, from the - I told you why I was arresting you. Do you remember those words?

 

Smith:  I donít remember exactly which words you used.

 

Nicholson:  Well, what I said to you, Ö

 

Smith:  It was a bit of a shock.

 

Nicholson:   I was arresting you for communicating classified information to a hostile agency.

 

Smith:  Well, I mean, I donít know how Iím supposed to answer that.

 

Nicholson:  Ok.

 

Smith:  I donít even know what youíre even talking about.

 

Nicholson:  I then pointed out to you that that was an offence against the Official Secrets Act

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

Nicholson:  And then I cautioned you.

 

Smith:  Ok, well I understand you.

 

Nicholson:  Do you remember that?

 

Smith:  Yeah, I remember that ...


 

 

 

Nicholson:  ... Youíre not obliged to say anything - and do you remember those words at the time?

 

Smith:  Yes. I remember those words.

 

Nicholson:  Then we seemed to go downhill in our relationship, because ...

 

Smith:  Look. I tell you exactly. Iím a very ...

 

Nicholson:  My assessment was that you were resisting.

 

Smith:  No, Iím quite a determined person. I have to be in my job. Itís not the sort of job you can just go and talk to people, and let them get away with murder on their quality systems. I have to be ...

 

Pepe:  So youíre quite assertive?

 

Smith:  I have to be. I mean itís my job.

 

Nicholson:  You hire and fire people?

 

Smith:  No, I donít hire and fire people, but I have to get to the answer that I want, and make people do what I want. Thatís my job, and when Iíve got guys coming up to me ...

 

Pepe:  And not doing what you say, I suppose.


 

 

 

Smith:  Iím not even given a chance to discuss it with you. I, er, if you come up to me in the street and said ďlook, weíve got a problem here, can you come down to the station and discuss itĒ, I would have just got in the car - but it wasnít treated like that, you seem to have the impression I was going to run away or something ...

 

Pepe:  I took by your actions, Michael. I mean, weíve never met before, and as you say, your character is rather assertive, and all the rest of it. Well, you would have run away, thatís why I ...

 

Smith:  Why should I run away? What for? Where am I going to go? I was going home.

 

Nicholson:  The whole point was reinforced on our journey that, um ...

 

Smith:  Well, you know what happened. I play the guitar, and I have to watch my hands.

 

Pepe:  Yeah.

 

Smith:  And youíve got this bloody thing thatís- it was so tight, that I could feel it on my bones almost. I said, ďlook, can you release it, because Iím sitting on thisĒ. I said, ďcan you release itĒ, or something like that. Because I wasnít going to jump out of the car, Iím not an idiot.


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Can I just draw your attention to ... Weíve been through these notes, um. Sergeant, if you could just tell Michael Smith, what the point that just triggered, just before he started becoming very violent.

 

Pepe:  To me Michael, I was doing your handcuffs Ė yeah, and sorting them all out, the metal ones, yeah - because you said they were hurting you, and I can see by the, at the moment now, the reddening and all the rest of it, youíve got quite big wrists. But you turn to me, and the look on your face, whereby you said, ďyouíre not the police, I know who you areĒ.

 

Smith:  I thought you were kidnapping me or something. I didnít know.

 

Pepe:  I know because you shouted.

 

Smith:  Well, who are you, I mean, youíre in an unmarked car. I mean, I just stopped in the street. Remember, Iím just, I hadnít been up very long. I was a bit tired.

 

Nicholson:  Who did you think we were?

 

Pepe:  Who did you think we were?

 

Smith:  God knows who, but I, this comes back to this job at Milton Keynes. Iíve applied for this job; Iím sure they were considering me; I suppose they wonít


 

 

 

now, I donít know, because of all this. And Iíve actually seen people outside I thought, who were watching my house, but itís happened before. I donít know if itís the Special Branch, or who they are. But people, Iíve seen people actually looking at my house.

 

Nicholson:  When?

 

Smith:  This was a week ago, two weeks ago.

 

Nicholson:  Is this since you made your application for this job?

 

Smith:  Yes, and thatís why I thought itís something to so with that, and I thought this has raised some issue, because I had a security problem in the past which I thought Iíd got rid of.

 

Nicholson:  What was that related to?

 

Smith:  It was a job that I had - must be 76 to 78 - when I worked for E.M.I. Electronics, and I was working on a very sensitive project there, er, is this, can I talk about things?

 

Nicholson:  Yeah, just talk your way through whatever you think is the cause for it ...

 

Smith:  All this is very relevant, because I think Iíve lived with this problem for a long time. In the early 70ís, after I left university, I got rather interested in left-wing politics, right?


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Could you put a degree on that?

 

Smith:  Er, for a short time I was Ö

 

Nicholson:  It goes all the way from Labour Party to Trotskyists.

 

Smith:  I, because I had friend who was a Yugoslav, and he was quite persuasive, and we used to share a flat for a short time. He talked to me about politics, and made me think about, well, things maybe not as good as they should be, and all this sort of thing. And, after I left university, I thought, well yeah, maybe heís right, and I got mixed up with a few characters who were in the Communist Party, and I joined the Young Communist League, and I played a role in some of their meetings. It was never serious, from the point of view that I was breaking the law, or doing anything stupid. It was just a phase I went through. I was looking for something I suppose. Itís probably sex actually, because I hadnít had much success with girlfriends in the early part of my life, and I thought, well itís a way of meeting people, perhaps doing something a bit different, and it dragged on for 2 or 3 years I think - 74, 75 I left. I got disillusioned with it. It wasnít what I wanted, and it must have been within a year that I got this job at EMI Electronics. Then I know what happened, I mean, somebody has found through the records that Iíd been involved in this, and they suddenly got a shock, because I was working on a very sensitive project and suddenly I, it coincided with, I was looking for a course to do.


 

 

 

I was doing an MSc course. I was looking for a project to do on, um, on this course. It was a part of the course.

 

Nicholson:  What was the general nature of that work that you were doing?

 

Smith:  It was, well, I shouldnít really discuss it with you, but I donít know if youíve been cleared to discuss these things.

 

Nicholson:  I think not.

 

Smith:  Iím not going to say, Iím not going to - if Iím in here for this reason. Iím not going to get involved in any classified ...

 

Nicholson:  Fine, carry on where you were.

 

Smith:  So, I was involved in this project for the best part of 2 years, and suddenly I was looking for this, um, project. I said, ďI need to do this project for this MSc courseĒ, and they said, ďOh, you canít do it here, you have to go to EMI MedicalĒ. And I was given to believe that that was what it was for. I found out afterwards that no, I wasnít going there for that reason, theyíd actually kicked me out. Then I got really, you know, curious and angry about it, because I thought, well, whatís itís for? Ok, maybe theyíd found out about this earlier interest Iíd had in left wing politics, but by that time I was married. I had no interest in politics. In fact we were more interested


 

 

 

in the Social Democratic Party, my wife and I - in the early days when that started up. And since then I donít really give a damn. I mean, honestly, all Iím interested in is what I think I can do for myself, and thatís that.

 

Nicholson:  Ok. Letís come back to the area that you say, for a few weeks ago, you suspected people were looking at you.

 

Smith:  Well, no, I wouldnít have gone for the job, honestly, I mean, it was just ...

 

Nicholson:  Was it a sensitive job?

 

Smith:  I think it was ...

 

Nicholson:  You were talking earlier that you were on sensitive work.

 

Smith:  You know what, um, Ferrantiís into military radar systems. I mean, itís not, I donít think it is. I mean, who is it going to interest now. Thereís no threat from abroad. I canít see. But anyway, I guess, because I revealed that Iíd been, er, I went through this Positive Vetting system in 1980, to try and clear up this mess from the 70ís, and my current job also involved - er, I donít know what level - a very low level I think of security clearance, because I wasnít


 

 

 

really doing anything secret, and I just applied for this job, because it had been offered to me as an interview, for Ferranti. I went along and filled in the questionnaire, a security questionnaire. Next thing I know, I was sure that somebody was watching the house, and maybe itís - Iím paranoid - I donít know.

 

Nicholson:  What was the level of security clearance required for that job that you, the one ...?

 

Smith:  The one I just left?

 

Nicholson:  No. Yes, the one that you say that prompted these persons to start looking at you, or what you believe.

 

Smith:  I donít know, I mean ...

 

Nicholson:  The one youíre going to.

 

Smith:  Well, the one I was going to was, er, I wouldnít say it was top level. I mean, I think radar systems are fairly well known.

 

Nicholson:  Youíve had previous security clearance?

 

Smith:  Yes, I mean, for the job I was doing.

 

Nicholson:  Do you know up to what level?

 

Smith:  I think it was quite low level. I donít think ...

 

Nicholson:  Always? Youíve never had a very high clearance?


 

 

 

Smith:  No, I must have had when I was working at EMI Electronics, because ...

 

Nicholson:  And would you have needed the same level for this job, that you were going for?

 

Smith:  I donít think so.

 

Nicholson:  But you think, that as a result of that application that youíve last made, this prompted you to be looked at, in ...?

 

Smith:  Well, itís all happened so suddenly. I mean, I was going along fine. I mean, the wife. I was saying my wife and I have been considering going to New Zealand, because actually Iím sick of the way this country has gone. I mean it, the unemployment. I mean, Iíve been, the second time Iíve been made redundant in 6 or 7 years, and I really donít want to spend my life like this. I thought New Zealand would really give us a fresh start. Weíve made all the opening, er, sort of moves, you know.

 

Nicholson:  Had you employment set up?

 

Smith:  Iíve got a possible job. Iím going for an interview in September, with a guy whoís coming over, visiting this country.

 

Nicholson:  Whoís that with?


 

 

 

Smith:  Itís with an organisation called TELARC, which is an auditing organisation. Iím ideally suited to that job, I think, and Iíve got a good chance of getting it. Iíll go, and Iíll have a new life there.

 

Nicholson:  Can we come back to this ...

 

Smith:  This job at Ferranti. I donít think I would have taken it, if theyíd offered it. Thatís the annoying thing.

 

Nicholson:  You mentioned at first, that you had a Yugoslav friend. Do you think he was the cause of your problems?

 

Smith:  I donít know. He lives in this country now, somewhere.

 

Nicholson:  Does he now, Ok. Right, letís go back to a few weeks ago. You say you saw persons.

 

Smith:  Well I thought, I mean, ... I said to ...

 

Nicholson:  Give us an approximation of the circumstances. Was it at work, was it at home ...?

 

Smith:  I said to my wife. I was looking out of the window, cooking I think. I looked out of the window, saw this guy sort of wandering around. He looked like he didnít know where he was going. But he kept coming back. A couple of times he went past my door.

 

Pepe:  When was this?

 

Smith:  I donít know. This was, er, this was, letís think.


 

 

 

Must have been 2 weeks ago. I really canít say when it was. It was early evening, about 8 oíclock. It was 8 oíclock, because I remember.

 

Pepe:  About 2 weeks ago?

 

Smith:  Yeah, I think.

 

Nicholson:  What did he look like to you?

 

Smith:  He just looked like, um, Iíd say about 50, rather grey looking sort of person, with a grey suit on.

 

Nicholson:  Was it the one instance?

 

Smith:  Well thatís the only time I can remember seeing him, yeah.

 

Nicholson:  What about other. You say that as a result of things that youíve seen.

 

Smith:  Well, Iím a good neighbour. If I see anything going on outside, that I thinkís a bit, you know, untoward, I make a comment. In fact, I know what happened back in Ď77, when they were investigating this earlier left-wing interest Iíd had. It must have been, they, um, they are Special Branch I suppose. A guy knocked on the door and he said, ďLook, weíre investigating this crime. Itís a theft of antiques in KentĒ. And I thought, ďwho the fuck do I know in KentĒ. I didnít know anybody in Kent. So I talked to this guy for a bit, and I thought bloody, heís casing the joint. Heís a burglar, you know. He just waved this bit of green card at me. So I went straight down to the police station


 

 

 

and I said, ďlook, thereís somebody doing somethingĒ. You know. They showed me one of these badges. I said, ďwell I donít think it was like thatĒ. But then, when I went for this, um, Positive Vetting, they pulled out a thing like a bloody telephone directory, full of all my conversations on the phone.

 

Nicholson:  What year was this?

 

Smith:  1980. I thought, ďwhat are these people playing atĒ. I mean, what are they looking at me for. I mean, I said to this, um, guy, ďlook, ask me any questions you likeĒ. I mean, whatís he trying to play at. I mean, Iím not trying to hide anything, but ...

 

Nicholson:  You told them then, that you were a member of the Communist Party?

 

Smith:  Yeah, well they, I was trying to keep it quiet. I ...

 

Nicholson:  Had you ever previously said that you were not then?

 

Smith:  Well I had. Yes, I was trying to hide it. But that was for my own benefit, I thought. I donít want to


 

 

 

get involved in losing my job, or being at risk. I thought, ďif they donít know about it, why should I say anythingĒ. And thatís the last time Iíll be untruthful about it, because I canít see the point in covering up something.

 

Nicholson:  So you saw this man walking around, and you say youíre a good neighbour. Who did you talk to about that?

 

Smith:  Well just the wife. I mean, he wandered off.

 

Nicholson:  You didnít speak to your neighbours about it then?

 

Smith:  Well, I said to my wife. No, no, not the neighbours, but ...

 

Nicholson:  Did you go to the police?

 

Smith:  It wasnít that. It didnít look that serious.

 

Nicholson:  Anything else that you saw in the last few weeks, that made you particularly uncomfortable?

 

Smith:  Well, I canít say, honestly I canít say. I mean, Iíve been quite happy. Because leaving my last job has been a bit horrendous to me. I mean, I had a lot of good friends there, and I intend to keep in touch with them now Iíve left. But yeah, Iíve been going through a lot of trauma


 

 

 

with that. Iíve been trying to get a job, and the one - Iíve got a temporary job that starts this coming Monday - thatís the only thing Iíve got thatís definite, and I think, well, that 3 month job is going to keep me ticking over until Iíve got, um, a permanent job, or it may just see me up until the time I go to New Zealand, if I definitely go. So, Iíve gone through a bad patch, and I didnít need all this.

 

Nicholson:  Ok, can we ask you to read through these notes. They are the account of the circumstances, from the time of your arrest, to the time of your arrival at the police station. Could you read through them and say, youíre signing to say youíve seen them, not necessarily that you agree with them. Do you understand?

 

Smith:  I didnít know that you had actually read them out.

 

Pepe:  Well, what I want also is that, youíre not going to rip them up, or anything like that. Yeah. Now that you are ...

 

Smith:  Iíve got no interest in being un-cooperative. I want cooperation, and as fast as possible.

 

Pepe:  As youíve said though, your mood is slightly different, isnít it, to what it was earlier. This is the first chance weíve had to sit down together, and for you to read this.


 

 

 

Smith:  Iíve got nothing against you guys. I mean, youíre doing your job.

 

Pepe:  Ok. What happens is that the Inspector writes down what you say, when youíve been arrested. He was doing this in the car. Ok, and, er, if the Inspector would like to read it to you.

 

Nicholson:  You were arrested at 9:38 this morning, and cautioned. You said then, "Whatís going on, I donít want my neighbours to see".

 

Smith:  Well, I was embarrassed. I didnít know what was going on. I was thinking about other people.

 

Pepe:  Could you endorse that?

 

Nicholson:  Could you endorse that?

 

Smith:  Yeah, but I donít, I think that was a misleading thing I said. I mean, I didnít - Ok, you can twist that; you can twist that, and thatís not true.

 

Pepe:  Weíre not here to twist.

 

Nicholson:  Weíre not here to twist anything. This is why weíre showing it to you.


 

 

 

Smith:  See - what the point about that is - Iím standing there thinking, ďwho are these guys. Theyíre saying something to me that sounds seriousĒ. Iíve got, my wifeís about to go out to the back man - I donít want her to see it. I donít want the neighbours to see it. You know, thatís what worried me. I was shocked about being in this predicament, and other people going to ... Because I donít like being a spectacle in public. I never have done.

 

Pepe:  Thatís what was recorded, and thatís our job, Michael.

 

Smith:  Can I change that and say ...

 

Nicholson:  You canít change it.

 

Pepe:  You canít change whatís been said. Make an explanation about it, yeah. To say what you would have meant that to mean. Say on this tape now.

 

Nicholson:  Say now what your explanation would be.

 

Pepe:  Well what did you mean by that? Is that the embarrassment?

 

Smith:  I hate embarrassment. Iíve always said that to my wife, when she embarrasses me in public. Itís the worst thing that could happen to me. I mean, I hate being embarrassed in public.

 

Nicholson:  But you knew we were police officers?


 

 

 

Smith:  Well, you said so, but, I mean, I was doubting it, because I couldnít see a police car anywhere, and I wondered if you really were. You didnít show me any badge, did you? I donít remember, did you?.

 

Nicholson:  I was holding it out to you when I approached you.

 

Smith:  Well I didnít see it.

 

Pepe:  You looked shocked anyway. So ...

 

Smith:  Well I was surprised, because, as I say, I was fast asleep only half an hour earlier, or so.

 

Pepe:  Ok. Well, could you just. Iíve signed there. Ok. Er, the time that this was being shown to me. What I ask is that you sign here, also, Ok, to say that at least youíve seen it.

 

Smith:  Well howís this going to be used I donít like. It makes it sound like Iím embarrassed about the neighbours, because Iíve done something wrong. I mean, itís not like that at all.

 

Pepe:  So you decline to sign.

 

Smith:  I will certainly. And thatís not because, um, Iím being awkward. Itís because my job is that you get everything exactly right, or you donít do it at all.

 

Pepe:  So youíre saying thatís not exactly right?


 

 

 

Smith:  I might have said it. I think the way itís written is misleading, because you didnít ask me to say anything more than that.

 

Nicholson:  I cautioned you.

 

Smith:  Yeah. Well, you know, if youíd said letís discuss it a bit. I mean, Iím quite open, Iím not trying to hide anything.

 

Pepe:  Well, Ok.

 

Smith:  Iím not going to have it misleading, that Iím embarrassed because the neighbours are going to see it, and Iím embarrassed because Iím being arrested.

 

Nicholson:  Ok, thatís fine.

 

Smith:  Do you know what the reason is?

 

Pepe:  Well, from what that I get there is embarrassment. Thatís what I get from that. That is what was said. Ok. I know that to be true. Ok. Thatís why Iíve signed it. What weíll do now, er, weíll conclude this interview, um. What weíll do, weíll go in the Custody Office, which is downstairs, and you can read through our notes in the presence of us and the Custody Officer. Um, what will happen then, er, you will be re-interviewed by an officer who is in charge of us, about this, and, er, hopefully, this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible.


 

 

 

Smith:  Well, as soon as possible, ícause Iíve got to start that job on Monday and ...

 

Pepe:  I do ask you if you can keep calm. Ok. Donít wind yourself up, as you did before.

 

Smith:  I am calm. I think I am calm, now. But Iím on the edge, because Iím meant to go to Sainsburyís this afternoon. God knows how the cats are going to get fed.

 

Pepe:  Ok. This is a form, which on the corner it says 987. That relates to how you can have access to this tape. Ok.

 

Smith:  Well, I donít need the tape. Look ...

 

Nicholson:  No, this is what my job is, conducting this. You must listen to this.

 

Pepe:  It is quite important that you do understand it, yeah, that this is a form which will explain how you can get the tape. Itís yours to keep. When I turn the machine off - the tape machine - very shortly, Ok, I will ask you to sign here to endorse this label. One of the tapes will be sealed forever. Ok. So it wonít be opened unless a judge or magistrate orders it to be opened. So itís a true record that we can all refer to. Ok. Exactly what happened into this room. Ok. Is there anything you wish to add?


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Right. I must stress to you, that you were invited at the opening of this interview to have legal, free legal, representation. There will be further interviews. Youíve heard the nature of the offence for which youíve been arrested. It is a very serious offence. I strongly recommend to you that you have legal representation present.

 

Smith:  But what goodís it going to do me. I donít want to get involved in some long case. I mean the thing is ...

 

Nicholson:  It does you good. It protects your interests. Your interests must be protected.

 

Smith:  Well solicitors are about spending money, and I donít want to get involved in it.

 

Nicholson:  Free legal advice. Free At no cost to yourself.

 

Smith:  Ok, Ok. Iíll see somebody if you insist, but I donít want it to delay the course of this.

 

Nicholson:  No. You are saying now that you would like to.


 

 

 

Smith:  Look, Ok, Yeah, Iíll go along with it, because youíre offering it. Iíll go along with it. I donít want to spend any money. I donít want to spend a lot of money on this, because Iíve got to save up. So what I want to do is see the solicitor, but as long as itís not going to cost any time. Itís all, time is the essence.

 

Pepe:  Well, the most important thing is that you are represented. Youíve got somebody here for your interests.

 

Smith:  Yes, I donít want them to drag it out and say weíre going to go into some long ... I donít want any long, drawn out ...

 

Nicholson:  No, no, no. It will take as long. The following interviews will take as long as it takes the solicitor to attend this police station.

 

Smith:  Ok. Can you, how long will that take.

 

Nicholson:  And have private representation with you. We will address that point with the Custody Officer, when this interview concludes.

 

Smith:  Ok. Can I see that this guy whoís in a suit, who keeps coming in and saying that heís going to be in 5 minutes, an hour, or something, and he just never turns up, because heís the one who ...


 

 

 

Nicholson:  Whoís that?

 

Smith:  I donít know, MacLeod is it? Is he the one? You mentioned, I donít know, the guy in the suit. Heís got a big Ďheavyí with him.

 

Nicholson:  The guy in a suit. The blue suit.

 

Smith:  Yeah.

 

Nicholson:  Thatís Mr McLeod.

 

Pepe:  Thatís Mr MacLeod. Yeah, not the big guy, sorry. No.

 

Nicholson:  Would you like to see Mr McLeod?

 

Smith:  Well, if heís the one whoís sort of, got me in this mess, then Iíd like to see him and sort it out.

 

Pepe:  Heís the officer in charge.

 

Nicholson:  The officer in charge of the investigation.

 

Smith:  All this has been about. Why Iím getting angry is because he wonít talk to me.

 

Nicholson:  Ok.

 

Pepe:  Well heís not allowed to talk to you Michael, unless itís in circumstances like this.


 

 

 

Smith:  Ok, well, letís do it.

 

Pepe:  Thatís why he would decline to answer any of your questions.

 

Nicholson:  The only point that we needed in this interview, was to establish, er, whether you were prepared to sign, having heard the account, make any comments about it, and to get your representation.

 

Smith:  Ok. My representation, if thatís what you call it, as long as I can see Mr McLeod as soon as possible, and get this mess sorted out.

 

Nicholson:  Right, we will set that all up.

 

Smith:  Because I want to get home. Iíve got things to do.

 

Pepe:  Iíve nothing further to add, and I take it you donít gentlemen. The time is now 3:30, coming up to 3:31 in the afternoon. This interview is now concluded, and Iíll switch the machine off.