INTERVIEW 12 ~ TAPE 22

 

Person interviewed:      Michael John Smith

 

Place of interview:        Paddington Green Police Station

 

Date of interview:         11th August 1992

 

Time commenced:        12:21   Time concluded:           12:50

 

Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

                                   Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

                                   Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

 

Beels:  This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, New Scotland Yard, Special Branch, the other officer with me is ...

 

MacLeod:  I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard.

 

Beels:  And you are Sir?

 

Smith:  Mr Michael Smith

 

Beels:  And you are Sir?

 

Jefferies:  Richard Jefferies, solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

 

Beels:  We are in Interview Room No 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this

 Interview, Mr Smith, Iíll show you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of tape. The date is the 11th August 1992, and the time is 12:21 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?


 

 

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

Beels:  Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

Beels:  Ok. Sir.

 

MacLeod:  Thank you. We hadnít quite completed the, sort of, events surrounding Saturday morning before the last interview finished. So, I would just like to go back over again what happened, what you did, rather, after you left the telephone box at the junction of Cardinal Avenue and Durlston Road.

 

Smith:  Is this the first time I was at the telephone box, or the second time?

 

MacLeod:  The first time.

 

Smith:  The first time. I, I left, well, I say the vicinity of the telephone box, and I walked towards Tudor Drive. I have jogged, I donít know, I was feeling, er, feeling, er, that I didnít have much time to get back to my wife. I got to Tudor Drive, I turned left at the Cardinal Pub, which is on the corner of Tudor Drive and Cardinal Avenue, I believe. I went into a flower shop and asked the question, somebody had directed me to a Cardinal Drive, did they know of the location of this road, and they said, we think youíve got it wrong, or something of the nature that I had an incorrect name of a road. I had the


 

 

 

impression that maybe my trip out had been a waste of time anyway. So I then went back down Cardinal Avenue, stopped briefly again at this junction. because I felt maybe that was the place that they were talking about, but I didnít know. And then proceeded back to the newsagent, going down, I think itís Hollybush Road - and you can correct me if you like, but the road that runs across the end of Cardinal Avenue - I think itís called Hollybush Road, or Hollybush Avenue, or something of that nature. I went down to, where that joins a road that runs alongside the park, there.

 

Beels:  Would that be Latchmere Lane, do you think?

 

Smith:  I havenít got a map, I canít say. I think Latchmere Road is the road that is, runs along between Tudor Drive and Richmond Road, I know that, but Iím not sure if itís Latchmere Lane.

 

Beels:  Latchmere Lane runs alongside the Recreation Ground.

 

Smith:  Well then, it happens to be the road Iím talking about.

 

Beels:  Ok. Fine.

 

Smith:  I went down Latchmere Lane, joined there is a new roundabout there, at the end of that, where it joins Latchmere Road. I turned right, I then turned immediately left down Staunton Road. I followed Staunton Road down as far as Kingís Road, I turned right. I went into the newsagent called Moranís, and purchased a copy of the Times, paid with a £1 coin, got 50p change, which was taken from me when I came here. I left the newsagents, and turned right, going towards Richmond


 

 

 

Road, turned immediately right down Chesfield road, and then, at the end of Chesfield Road, I turned left to come towards my home.

 

Beels:  And that was when you were arrested?

 

Smith:  Well, I was arrested just before I reached the driveway to my garage.

 

MacLeod:  So, in response to what might be described as an unusual telephone call, you left your house, at that time on a Sunday morning to go to a telephone box.

 

Smith:  Sorry, we keep talking about Sunday. This was Saturday.

 

MacLeod:  I do beg your pardon, yes, Iím so sorry, Iím losing track of the time here. On Saturday morning, in response to a telephone call, you went to this location at the junction Cardinal Avenue and Durlston Road, where thereís a telephone box, and you entered that telephone box.

 

Smith:  This, if you say I did, maybe I did, I am not confirming that. I may have done.

 

MacLeod:  You may have done. Right. Ok. And in anticipation of meeting somebody?

 

Smith:  I thought that was the, what the man was, was saying on the phone.

 

MacLeod:  Yeah.

 

Smith:  So if he was intending to meet me at this place, and as I say, I didnít know that was that actual location.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  And why enter the telephone box, if that was ...?

 

Smith:  Well, Iím not confirming that. Because ,as I say, Iím not sure I did at that point.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. So, how long did you stay in the vicinity of the telephone box?

 

Smith:  I would say, er, seconds. I donít think it was longer than that.

 

MacLeod:  I mean, if you had made arrangements to meet someone there, you didnít really give them an awful lot of time to meet him.

 

Smith:  Well, if there was somebody there, I would have said he would have been there then. I mean, if he wasnít there then, obviously ...

 

MacLeod:  But didnít you think it ...

 

Smith:  Ö it wasnít, wasnít the, either it was the wrong location, or the man was a hoax.

 

MacLeod:  But was it not reasonable, to give a length of time, to wait a few minutes, one way or another?

 

Smith:  I was only, you got to remember now, I was only going there out of curiosity. If ...

 

MacLeod:  Oh, I realise that.

 

Smith:  Ö if there had been some, some reason for me to stay there. He didnít indicate that on the telephone.

 

MacLeod:  But, I mean, you, you only waited there a few seconds, and then you jogged off to the vicinity of this second telephone kiosk. Is that not right?


 

 

 

Smith:  I wouldnít really say I jogged off, Iím not a very fit man.

 

MacLeod:  No, but you took, you, you ...

 

Smith:  I might have jogged a bit, because I was more aware of, my wife was about to leave home, and I didnít want to get back before she, after she left.

 

MacLeod:  Yes. But I mean, it would be true to say that you, you made some haste, jog, whatever?

 

Smith:  Well, it was quite a long way, itís, in terms of, just - I, Iím quite a quick walker, but Iím not a very fast jogger.

 

MacLeod:  I mean, the corner of Latchmere Lane and Tudor Drive is in the opposite direction, well not the opposite, but it is away from your home address.

 

Smith:  Well, so is this Durlston Road, the Cardinal Avenue junction is away from my address.

 

MacLeod:  But what prompted you to go from the first telephone kiosk?

 

Smith:  I thought I had explained this already. I was not sure the directions of, I only had, the only sure road name I had in my mind, now Iím not very good at hearing things on the telephone, and with the accent that this man had, I did not get the name Durlston Road. I heard some garbled word, which I didnít fully understand, but I did hear Cardinal Drive. And I thought, well, I know Cardinal, the name Cardinal, because that is the name of a pub. So I guessed that it must be in that vicinity, and I know that road,


 

 

 

because my wife and I used to walk down it, between my previous home and the Cardinal pub some evenings. So itís a road I do know. So, I thought, it was quite natural for me to walk down that road, to see if maybe it was at the other end, that this man was supposed to meet me.

 

MacLeod:  But you were walking away. You were walking away from Durlston Road?

 

Smith:  Thatís quite correct, yes. Iím not denying that. I donít see anything suspicious in that, in fact.

 

MacLeod:  Well, Iím just a little bit puzzled, as to why, if the instructions were to meet this man George, or whosoever, at the junction, or on the corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue, why you should choose to walk away from that location?

 

Smith:  Well, I, not having the names of the roads clearly in my mind ...

 

MacLeod:  But you live in the area.

 

Smith:  I explained to you before. I know, I know some of the roads in the area by name, I know them. You could mention other names just round the corner, that I wouldnít know where they were. I mean, people have actually asked me for the name of a road, just in Kingís Road, and I canít give it to them. I, I donít have a map of Kingston in my brain. So, I know the Cardinal pub. I know Cardinal Avenue. I know the Latchmere Road. I know a few names, and Tudor Drive, those sort of names stick in my mind, because theyíre roads that I use a lot. With this name, Cardinal Drive, I couldnít place it. So I guessed that it must be somewhere on the other side of the Cardinal pub. I wasnít sure.


 

 

 

Having gone down Cardinal Avenue, I wasnít aware of there being a telephone box at the end of the road, so I thought Iíd obviously got the wrong area. So thatís why I, I asked the man in the flower shop, where this Cardinal Drive actually was. And it was a genuine lack of knowledge on my part, as to where this particular location was. I was looking for it, to see if this man George - who was so curious in his approach to me - was at this place, and I didnít know where this place was, and I was trying to find it. And thatís the reason why I went down Cardinal Avenue, not because I had any idea that there was something at the end of Cardinal Avenue at all.

 

MacLeod:  So why didnít you - I come back to this point - why didnít you stay in the vicinity then, if you were curious to meet this man George, and to find out what this was ...

 

Smith:  Well, I was curious, but Iím not so curious that Iím going to waste my time on a Saturday morning, when I had things to do that morning. I had to go to post a parcel to the States, because Iíve got to return a manual for some of the software I own, because itís got some incorrect pages in it, and I wanted to try to do that on Saturday morning, but, so I wasnít going to waste my time. I wanted to get back to my wife, in any case, because she would have been anxious if she had left home before I got back.

 

MacLeod:  Well, if you were anxious to get back home, you still havenít answered my question, why you should walk in the opposite direction to your home address?

 

Smith:  I thought I had already explained this.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  But not very satisfactorily.

 

Smith:  Ok. Iíll repeat in the most, clearest way I can describe it.

 

MacLeod:  Right. You came out of the telephone box. Did you turn left, or did you turn right, when you left the telephone box?

 

Smith:  Youíre saying I was at the telephone box at this stage?

 

MacLeod:  When you, at Cardinal Avenue and Durlston Road, there is a telephone box.

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

MacLeod:  You have told me that you were in the telephone box, and that you picked up the telephone receiver to make a call.

 

Smith:  No, I donít think I said I definitely did that. I think I may have done. I mean, you are putting the words into my mouth on that point.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. I have no wish to do that. I just want to get it clear ...

 

Smith:  I mean, if you have photographic evidence that I did, then I canít deny it, but Iím not absolutely sure that I did.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. But you were in the telephone box, whether you be, lifted it or not.

 

Smith:  In the vicinity of the telephone box.

 

MacLeod:  In the vicinity. Oh, in the vicinity of the telephone box. Ok. You were in the vicinity of the telephone


 

 

 

box, because thatís where you had been directed to go. Can you tell me what road did you go up then?

 

Smith:  I then went up Cardinal Avenue.

 

MacLeod:  Yes.

 

Smith:  Iím quite clear about that.

 

MacLeod:  Right.

 

Smith:  Which is, would be a left turn from the box, the telephone box.

 

MacLeod:  Right, correct. And you went up Cardinal Avenue, and where did you go then?

 

Smith:  I then turned left at the end of Cardinal Avenue, into Tudor Drive. I approached the, a parade of shops which is there, which is adjacent to the Cardinal pub. The first shop is a flower shop, I saw there were some people in there. So, I, I asked the question, ďdo you know where Cardinal Drive is?Ē So they said, they - now itís quite a big area that, the estate on which weíre talking about is called the Tudor Estate, and thereís a lot of roads that have similar names, I think. I get very confused, I donít know that area very well, and I, I had no idea whether there was more than one Cardinal Drive, Road, or whatever in that area. So, I felt the best thing was to ask somebody who lived in that area. I donít live in that area. I live off Kingís Road.

 

MacLeod:  So, you went up Cardinal Avenue, you made some enquiries, and what route did you take then?


 

 

 

Smith:  I then came straight back down Cardinal Avenue.

 

MacLeod:  You didnít go into Tudor Drive?

 

Smith:  Well Tudor, Cardinal Avenue and the flower shop are literally, I would say, 50 yards apart. Theyíre, I was in Tudor Drive at the flower shop. So, I entered Tudor Drive, and I left Tudor Drive. I didnít go anywhere in Tudor Drive apart from to the flower shop.

 

MacLeod:  And you came back, and remained in the vicinity of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue. Is that right?

 

Smith:  Thatís correct, but it was, it was ...

 

MacLeod:  How long did you remain there?

 

Smith:  It was a very short period, I think. It couldnít have been more than thirty seconds, or a minute. I thought, this is a waste of time.

 

MacLeod:  So, are you telling me then, that you didnít, are you saying that you didnít, go to the vicinity of Latchmere, the junction Latchmere Lane and Tudor Drive?

 

Smith:  No, I didnít go anywhere near that junction, that junction is about 2 or 3 hundred yards in the opposite direction down Tudor Drive. No, I didnít go that way at all. Are you saying I should have done? I took what I thought


 

 

 

was the most direct route, to try to sort out who this man George was, what his connection was with me, and I donít see that you could misunderstand that the route I took wasnít direct, it is quite a direct route, in fact the shortest route to the Cardinal pub.

 

MacLeod:  Iím going to show you some photographs now, Mr Smith, that were taken on Saturday morning, at the relevant time.

 

Beels:  Mr MacLeod has just opened exhibit CJS/1. Do you see that Mr Smith, CJS/1?

 

Smith:  Is CJS/1 significant? Should I remember that?

 

Beels:  It just identifies for court purposes.

 

MacLeod:  I am now going to show Mr Smith a coloured photograph. Do you recognise that photograph, or do you recognise yourself?

 

Smith:  Yes, thatís me. Iím wearing the same tee-shirt as I was before. You see, I was actually looking to see if there was anybody there.

 

MacLeod:  Yes, of course you were. And youíre right beside the telephone box.

 

Smith:  Yes, Iím just, I didnít, thatís completely in accord with my story.

 

Beels:  This photograph I will make exhibit SJB/22.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  And you would, Iím going to produce another coloured photograph to Mr Smith, again in the same vicinity, you recognise?

 

Smith:  Yes, itís probably itís the same, it must have been taken at the same time, yes.

 

Beels:  And this photograph, I will make exhibit SJB/23.

 

MacLeod:  Iíll show a third coloured photograph to Mr Smith. Do you recognise the road?

 

Smith:  Yes, Hollybush Road, Iím sure that is all consistent with ...

 

MacLeod:  Yes.

 

Smith:  Ö the area weíre talking about.

 

MacLeod:  Yes.

 

Beels:  That photograph Iíll make exhibit SJB/24.

 

MacLeod:  And again, a similar photograph taken at the same time, with you entering the telephone box.

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

Beels:  This will be exhibit SJB/25.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  And, in actual fact, this further photograph shows you inside the telephone box.

 

Smith:  Well, obviously, I have been, yes.

 

MacLeod:  The same sequence taken at the same time.

 

Beels:  This photograph will be exhibit SJB/26.

 

MacLeod:  So you wouldnít, you donít disagree then, that you were in the telephone box at that time on Saturday morning?

 

Smith:  I donít know what time that was, because I think this was already past the time when this man had told me ...

 

MacLeod:  Well, yes, at the relevant time, at the time weíre talking about, and did you enter the telephone box to make a telephone call?

 

Smith:  I was, as I explained, having now found that time was running short, my wife was about to leave for her osteopathís appointment, I was rather concerned that she shouldnít leave before I got back, because we have a routine of shutting the windows before either of us go out, or if we leave the home unattended. So I was, I was thinking of actually calling her. I think I was about to do that when I thought, ďno, sheís probably in the showerĒ, I donít want to disturb her and stop her getting ready, because she always leaves these appointments to the last minute.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  So you knew your wife was going out on Saturday morning, yes?

 

Smith:  Yes, we knew about it for some time.

 

MacLeod:  Yes, well, you knew about it, and you still left your address to go to speak to some, or meet some stranger at a venue that had been agreed on the telephone? Well, Iím sorry, that is not the behaviour of an average person in the street.

 

Smith:  Well, I am sorry to say this, but I think youíve jumped to a conclusion there. I did not know, I was actually going to meet anybody. I had ...

 

MacLeod:  Well, can I re-phrase.

 

Smith:  I had a ...

 

MacLeod:  Can I re-phrase my question? If you didnít believe you were going to meet somebody, were you expecting to receive a further message?

 

Smith:  No.

 

MacLeod:  Well, why go there?

 

Smith:  Itís a Ė look, the point of having a strange caller


 

 

 

on my phone at home, telling me about some location nearby, made me suspicious and curious, and I wanted to see what was there, whether there was somebody there. I wasnít going to meet this person. I mean, I was just going to take a look for myself.

 

MacLeod:  To take a look. Mr Smith, I think we have been playing games long enough now. You know, as well as I do, that you were responding to that telephone call, because you were expecting to meet somebody, or if not meet somebody, receive further directions for a meeting.

 

Smith:  I was not expecting ...

 

MacLeod:  Consistent with KGB tradecraft, the tradecraft that youíd undergone on many occasions.

 

Smith:  Thatís not true.

 

MacLeod:  You went willingly and spontaneously, from your address on Saturday morning.

 

Smith:  It was not spontaneous.

 

MacLeod:  You went to one telephone call, telephone box. You were too late for the call.

 

Smith:  No.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  You just missed it, how do you know.

 

Smith:  Well, this is not consistent with my story. I did not go instantaneously to this location. I ...

 

MacLeod:  Well, Ok. You took about ...

 

Smith:  10 or 15 minutes.

 

MacLeod:  15 minutes. Right, Ok.

 

Smith:  I didnít, you, you, if you, you know the call, the timing of the call, no doubt you know the time I left my house.

 

MacLeod:  I do indeed.

 

Smith:  And I did not respond instantaneously.

 

MacLeod:  Well, letís not be pedantic, letís not be pedantic. You left within a very short time of having received that telephone call, to go and either meet a stranger, or take further directions from that stranger. You went into the telephone box, because you knew that the practice was for a phone call to be made into that telephone kiosk.

 

Smith:  I did not know that.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  But, well you, itís not consistent with your behaviour.

 

Smith:  Can I please, can I please give my view of this, because I think youíre putting words into my mouth again.

 

MacLeod:  I have no wish to do so.

 

Smith:  No, I did not go there with any preconceived ideas of what to expect, whether to meet somebody, or to receive a call, or whatever. As far as I was concerned it was purely, the location was given to me, and a stranger who I do not know, I do not know this George, I do not know what he does, he may be one of your people, I donít know. How can I possibly know that, and so my reasons for going to that, that location was to try to sort out what I felt was part of a continuing plan of surveillance of my home.

 

MacLeod:  Mr Smith, please give at least some credit for our intelligence.

 

Smith:  Well did you, or did you not, make that call?

 

MacLeod:  Iíll ask the questions, I am conducting this interview.

 

Smith:  Well, I think this is very significant.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  It is significant, because itís significant in that it demonstrates to me that you are a KGB agent, and that you ...

 

Smith:  I donít think that shows anything of the sort.

 

MacLeod:  Well, itís certainly not the behaviour of a, of the average person in the street. To take a telephone call at that time of the morning, and then to within 15-20 minutes leave your address to go to a telephone box, not to make a telephone call, wait just a few seconds, rush off further up the road, away from your home address, to the vicinity of another telephone box.

 

Smith:  No. If you, if somebody phones up, and weíre not talking about average people, because you know Iím not average.

 

MacLeod:  Well, Iím beginning to realise that.

 

Smith:  Right. I am an intelligent person. Iím curious. The nature of my job is such that I look for these sort of discontinuities in things, itís part of my job. So, when something like this arises, I want to get to the bottom of it. I want to know what is going on, and I see nothing wrong, itís nothing inconsistent in my approach to that. If I feel, there is reasons for me to think something is suspiciously


 

 

 

going on, particularly when a time limit was put on it. I mean, if he had said, well come in 2 hours, I think you could have then said it was a premeditated move on my part. The fact it wasnít that long, I think, shows that I was reacting to a situation I wanted to quickly sort out, whatís going on here?

 

MacLeod:  Because you recognised that as being significant to you.

 

Smith:  No. I didnít recognise that as being significant to me.

 

MacLeod:  Because he only had to mention the name Victor, your old chum, Victor.

 

Smith:  I do not know this man Victor. I keep telling you.

 

MacLeod:  Well, there was a reference made to Victor in the telephone conversation, was there not?

 

Smith:  Well, at the time I didnít remember it. As you remember, on the tape, I wasnít sure.

 

MacLeod:  Well?

 

Smith:  It was only when you played it back, I hear the name Victor.

 

MacLeod:  You well remember the conversation, the gist of the conversation. You may not have known who George was, Iíll give you the benefit of the doubt there,


 

 

 

perhaps, but you certainly knew who Victor was, because it was Victor that prompted you to leave your address, to go to that telephone box. You missed the call by seconds, and in line with the instructions that had previously been given to you, by your KGB controllers, you went to another telephone box in the vicinity.

 

Smith:  I did not go to another - this is ...

 

MacLeod:  You didnít enter it, but you remained in the vicinity of the phone box.

 

Smith:  If you are talking about another phone box, ...

 

MacLeod:  I am.

 

Smith:  Ö there is not another phone box in that, in the vicinity of anywhere like that. The only phone box I passed, on the whole of that journey, was the one at Cardinal Avenue, Durlston Road. I mean, there was no other phone box I went anywhere near, so I donít see how you can draw that conclusion.

 

MacLeod:  You didnít enter it, granted.

 

Smith:  Which phone box are we talking about then, because I think, youíve obviously got ...

 

MacLeod:  A phone box in Tudor Drive, near to the junction with Latchmere Lane.


 

 

 

Smith:  I did not go anywhere near that phone box. I know thereís a phone box there, but I didnít get, I didnít ...

 

MacLeod:  Well, I thought you just, you told me a moment ago, there isnít another one in the vicinity?

 

Smith:  The vicinity, we were talking about, the Cardinal pub. I donít know of a phone box there.

 

Beels:  Ok. As weíre coming towards the end of this tape, Iím about to switch the machine off and change tapes. The time is 12:50 pm.

 


 

 

 

INTERVIEW 12 ~ TAPE 23

 

Person interviewed:      Michael John Smith

 

Place of interview:        Paddington Green Police Station

 

Date of interview:         11th August 1992

 

Time commenced:        12:52   Time concluded:           12:58

 

Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

                                   Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

                                   Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

 

Beels:  The time is now 12:52 pm, and you are still under caution. Do you understand Mr Smith?

 

Smith:  Yes

 

MacLeod:  Mr Smith, Iím just going to change tack now, just very briefly, before we break for lunch. But I want to go back now, to the trip that you made to Portugal some years ago.

 

Smith:  Yes.

 

MacLeod:  Discussed in the previous interview.

 

Smith:  The one we discussed yesterday?

 

MacLeod:  Yes. During the search of your house we found some literature, and Iím going to produce exhibit JS/45, and this is a map, a tourist map, of the centre of Oporto. I would like you to take a look at it.


 

 

 

Is this one that you had actually?

 

Smith:  Yes, I think thatís the one I had, yes.

 

MacLeod:  I see. Fine, Ok.

 

Smith:  In fact, I think itís torn out of a book that had a lot of garbage on it. I just tore this map out, because it was useful.

 

MacLeod:  And you recognise there are a number of biro markings on it.

 

Smith:  Yes. As I remember, we went to a tourist agency there, and the woman in the agency was - I am not sure if these were restaurants or hotels, I think they must have been - they were places of interest that we were discussing with the woman in the tourist agency. She marked them on there for me.

 

MacLeod:  So, what youíre telling me is, that these are, sort of, places of tourist interest?

 

Smith:  Yes, because, I mean, I never do this sort of thing on a map. Somebody was saying, itís in that area or something, thatís the main area of interest.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. So?


 

 

 

Smith:  That was the reason for the marking.

 

MacLeod:  You, you ...

 

Smith:  I donít believe I made those markings.

 

MacLeod:  But you can recall those markings being made on this map, when you were there?

 

Smith:  Yes, itís a normal practice. If you go into a tourist agency, theyíll mark places of interest and that sort of thing.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. Right. Iíll show you another one. And I am going to produce a further map. This is exhibit JS/46, and again, it relates to Oporto, and itís a, a sort of, map of a camp site.

 

Smith:  Thatís right.

 

MacLeod:  And you recognise this, as being one that you ...

 

Smith:  Yes. This is the camp site that I stayed with my friend John Watson. I suppose you want me to make comment on the markings on this map, do you?

 

MacLeod:  Are they of significance?


 

 

 

Smith:  I canít be sure now, because itís a long time ago. But I think this may have been the, at the place where we entered the camp, there was a sort of office, camp site office, and all I can think - as I said, it was a long time ago, and I canít be sure. I believe these markings would have been made by the man at the office - because he didnít speak English, as far as I remember - as to where the showers were, and where to eat, or the camp site shop.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. So itís a fairly innocent sort of ...

 

Smith:  Well, I think itís innocent. In fact, I think, as I remember, on the back there it said the Fado Restaurant. I think this was given to us at the time.

 

MacLeod:  Right. Ok. And on the other side of the same map, you reckon ...

 

Smith:  Yes. These were the times we had to be at the restaurant, and this was the cost, I think, of the meal ...

 

MacLeod:  So that ...

 

Smith:  Ö and it was going to be with typical regional dancing and singing.

 

MacLeod:  Ok. So what youíre saying is, thatís a fairly innocent ...

 

Smith:  Yes. I kept it, because I thought I might go back there sometime.


 

 

 

MacLeod:  And the final exhibit Iím going to show you, is exhibit SR/7, and this is a map of, um, a tourist map of downtown Chicago, yes? Relates to the visit that you made back in 19 ...

 

Smith:  Iíd forgotten I had that, actually.

 

MacLeod:  And do you recognise that as a map ...

 

Smith:  Yes, I ...

 

MacLeod:  Ö that you had acquired, when you were in the States?

 

Smith:  Yes. Again, I, because of the passage of time, I canít be absolutely sure who did this. These are not my markings. But I stayed with this woman, Diane, who I think was called Yarr or Yarn, it was a Jewish name she had [Jachim]. Now she worked in parts of Chicago, and I think thatís the marking at the top, I think thatís, Iíve a feeling that was the office where she worked, and these were a few places she said, ďwell, while youíre in Chicago, you can go to these placesĒ. I think, may be, thatís Searís Tower. She said you can go up Searís Tower, and, and the reason we were looking, maybe Iíve got this wrong, I donít know, but these were, she was very interested in architecture, because Chicago is very famous for well known architects, who built some unusual buildings there,


 

 

 

and Iíve got a feeling this has something to do with that. She pointed out a number of interesting buildings, from the architectural point of view, that perhaps I should visit.

 

Beels:  When was this, remind me when?

 

Smith:  This was in 1976.

 

MacLeod:  Right. We are going to draw this interview to a close, and break for lunch.

 

Beels:  I am now concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify Mr Smith?

 

Smith:  No, I donít think so.

 

Beels:  At the end of this interview, Iíll be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape, will you do so?

 

Smith:  Yes, I will.

 

Beels:  Thereís a form here explaining your rights of access to the tape. The time is 12:58 pm.