Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 11th August 1992
Time commenced: 14:54 Time concluded: 15:21
Other persons present: Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Detective Constable Jonathan Peter Say
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, New Scotland Yard, Special Branch. The other officer with me is ...
Say: Jonathan Say, Detective Constable, Special Branch.
Beels: You are Sir ...
Smith: Mr Michael Smith.
Beels: And you are Sir ...
Solicitor: Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor, from Tuckers Solicitors.
Beels: We are in Interview Room No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I’ll give you, Mr Smith, a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 11th August, and the time now by my watch is 2:54 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: I understand you had some exercise and some food today?
Smith: That’s correct.
Beels: Good, Ok. This interview, we wish to discuss in broad terms initially, you know, your finances, how you arrange your finances.
Smith: Well, I think this is an appropriate point to say, that I’ve conferred with my solicitor about the matters we discussed yesterday, concerning a quantity of money, which was found in my flat.
Say: Yes.
Smith: If you wish me to discuss that, then I will.
Say: Ok. Well, that will, yes, that certainly will come into it. But I’d like, at the outset of the interview, to just ask you to explain how do you manage your finances, generally. What sort of accounts you keep, and your income, what sort of income you have, and your
expenditure generally. We don’t have to be too specific, but I’d like to know what sort of accounts you do hold.
Smith: I hold a personal account in the NatWest Bank. Obviously, I can’t remember numbers here, because I don’t have the details. I have a joint account at the NatWest Bank, with my wife. I have an Abbey National Instant Saver Account. In terms of what you wish to know, is that the type of information?
Say: Yes, that’s right.
Smith: I don’t believe there’s other places, that I actually have money residing. I have some shares, and the like, but I don’t think that’s what you wish to ...
Say: Could we talk about your personal account. Could you, sort of, run through the average month. You get paid, how often?
Smith: Well, I’m not paid now.
Beels: When you were working, until recently.
Say: When you were working.
Smith: I, it’s a bit difficult, because the company has changed its payment policy in the last financial year, the start of this financial year. I was paid
until last month, once per month.
Say: And that was about?
Smith: Which was, I think, about the third Wednesday in the month. I can’t remember now exactly how it’s worked out, there’s a way of calculating it. Previously to this financial year, I am going back sometime, I’ve been paid on what the company regards as a 4, 4, 5 week basis.
Say: Yes.
Smith: If you are aware of that?
Say: Yes.
Smith: And the payment time was varied because of that, but again roughly came towards the end of a month.
Say: And if we talk about last year, when you were in employment for the whole year. Is that right?
Smith: Yes, that’s correct.
Say: So we’ll talk about ’91. How much would that be per month roughly, went into the account from your salary?
Smith: Per month. I can’t give you an exact amount, but ...
Say: About.
Smith: Because, I am explaining here, being on a 4, 4, 5 basis, it ...
Say: It varied.
Smith: But if we averaged it out, the average would be approximately, I think, £1,100.
Say: Right, and how would that be spent?
Smith: A certain proportion went into my joint account.
Say: What sort of proportion was that?
Smith: I think it was about £130 a month, I guess, it’s of that order.
Say: Of course, yes, obviously I appreciate it will be about. And what did that pay for?
Smith: That paid for all the bills, the mortgage, the sort of things that we paid on a regular basis, like telephone bills, gas, electricity, water rates.
Say: How much was your mortgage?
Smith: The mortgage was approximately the same as my payment, about £130 a month I believe.
Say: And where did the rest of the money go?
Smith: I have a savings scheme with 2 Unit Trust companies, into which I pay £25 per month each, so that’s another £50.
Say: Yes.
Smith: Then of course there’s ...
Say: That still leaves ...
Smith: There’s the Poll Tax of course, the Community Charge.
Say: How much is your Poll Tax?
Smith: I think it’s approximately £30 per month. Again, I don’t have the figures with me.
Say: That still leaves about £800 per month. Where did that go?
Smith: Basically on living. (Laughter)
Say: How did you buy things during the month? Was it by cheque, or was it by cash, or was it a mixture?
Smith: It was a mixture of things. I tended to pay cheque on things that were sent through the post. If I was paying for something, if cheque was appropriate means to payment.
Say: And what happened? Did this £800 go down gradually, to very little by the time the next payment came in?
Smith: Yes, I tried, I tended to spend it or more or less sort of save, or transfer it into my Abbey National account. In recent, in very recent times, I found I had actually accumulated a bit more than I thought in my current account, so I moved it ...
Say: Moved it over?
Smith: You’ll probably see that is reflected in my ...
Say: How did you transfer it to the Abbey National?
Smith: By cheque.
Say: By cheque. Does your wife have a signing mandate. Is she on the Abbey National account?
Smith: No, she doesn’t. I mean, she has asked me about this, and I ...
Say: Keep it a secret?
Smith: I have declined, because I think she ...
Say: We are all entitled to our secrets, aren’t we. So she doesn’t have, she doesn’t know about the Abbey National account, or she doesn’t know how much is in it?
Smith: She doesn’t know exactly how much. I’ve told her approximately how much is in it. I think she’s aware that it’s enough to, for the rainy day, and ...
Say: Sure.
Smith: And in fact, I don’t regard it as my money, I regard it as our money. It’s just, I feel I am a better judge of how to spend it than she is.
Say: Right. So, most of the money went on normal living. Some, if it was left over, I suppose, at the end of the month, you transferred it to the Abbey National by cheque. How did you do your shopping, that was by, did you use cash for that, or cheque for that, or ...?
Smith: I’ve used a mixture. I mean, I have paid by cheque. I used to find paying by cheque was a bit of a pain, because the way they administer it at the check-out.
Say: Yes.
Smith: I’ve paid by credit card, and cash in the past.
Say: Right, and when you get cash, have you got a till card for the cash?
Smith: Yes I do, that’s at the desk I think at the moment.
Say: And you use that all the time, do you, or most of the time, or some of the time?
Smith: Off and on. I mean, some of the time. It depends on how things are going in the month, I mean, sometimes, if I’m, I’ve spent more than I should, well maybe I’ll go to the cash machine, if I don’t - I must admit, I do try to not spend money week by week, I prefer to spend it on bigger things.
Say: But, how would you get the cash in your pocket, in you r wallet, for normal every day work. Would that come from a till machine, generally, or would you go into a branch and make a cheque for cash, or something?
Smith: No, I never go in and cash cheques. I think it, I used to a long time ago. I found the service till is by far the easiest way to get cash.
Say: And open all day. So that’s the personal account. The joint account, how does that work, let’s, with your wife.
Smith: The joint account is, I can’t remember exactly how much she pays in, but it’s an equivalent amount to what I do. I pay slightly more than she does, but ...
Say: And this is an agreement, that you both pay an amount per month.
Smith: That’s correct. I mean, it’s to cover the bills, and we have moved it up and down a bit in the past, when mortgage rates changed, and such like.
Say: Yes.
Smith: I don’t pry into her money affairs, so I wouldn’t like to say.
Say: She’s got her own bank account?
Smith: Yes. I mean, then she will have to answer for herself.
Say: Has she got a savings account as well?
Smith: Not at present. She did have a savings account when I first met her, and for some time after we were married, I believe. But, I think she withdrew all the money and dropped it.
Say: The Abbey National account comes next, doesn’t it. Abbey National. How much has that got in it,
roughly now, do you know?
Smith: I can’t give you an exact figure. It’s approximately £8,400.
Say: And that has all been accumulated by cheque transfers from your current account?
Smith: No, I wouldn’t say that.
Say: How did we get £8,000 in there?
Smith: Right. There’s, I’ve put money in and taken money out over the last couple of years, because of these public company sell-offs. Certain cheques have come back to me, where I didn’t obtain the number of shares I was looking for, so that’s been going back ...
Say: Right.
Smith: I received some dividends from the shares, which I have tended to put into that account rather than my personal account. Some I put into my personal account, I think, because it was easier at the time. And there have been certain times when I’ve had a bit of cash to put in, where somebody’s given me some money for something.
Say: Sometimes cash, how often did that happen?
Smith: Not very often, I’d say. If you look back over it, probably.
Say: Talk 90/91? With the last year.
Smith: Well, maybe on one or two occasions only. I can’t think that was a regular way I would pay money into that account.
Say: Now, when you were brought into this police station, you had 3 £50 notes in your pocket, didn’t you.
Smith: Yes.
Say: Where did they come from? Do you remember?
Smith: Is this an appropriate time for me to …?
Say: Maybe. If you want to talk about the £50 notes, please do, yes.
Smith: Yes. Well, £50 notes were paid to me.
Say: Yeah.
Smith: As a payment for some work I’d done.
Beels: What sort of work?
Smith: Right. Now, this is where I would like to discuss the matter, which has caused me some embarrassment yesterday. And the reason why I was, so evasive, I just wasn’t telling you everything I knew.
Beels: Ok.
Smith: Mmm, over the source of that money. That money, I’ve been given for doing certain work for somebody who approached me for documentation, based on the work I was doing at Hirst Research Centre.
Beels: Right. Can you explain a bit more specifically?
Smith: Right. Some, more than 2 years ago, I’d say this is the early part of 1990. I can’t be exact, but it was January or February, about that time. I received a phone call at work, from a man who introduced himself as Harry. I never knew his second name, or even if Harry was his true name. He, the way that the conversation went was not suspicious. I, sometime before that, I’d approached a company for a book called ‘How to Become a Millionaire’, which was run, I didn’t realise it at the time, that this company used a mailing list system, and I ended up with a lot of junk mail and a lot of phone calls about, “would you like to join our pyramid selling organisation”, or “would you like to invest in stocks and shares with our brokers”. All sorts of things started coming back. Now, I have been rung at work before, by somebody who said, “look, you, this is a business venture, if you’d like to become involved, and you can make a lot of money very quickly”, and I’ve usually brushed it aside, because it involves me some inconvenience in going up town to waste my time at a session of power selling. So, I’ve always declined it. I used the same approach to this man, but he was very casual and
easy going about it, and said, “look, I can meet you in a pub round the corner”, and we arranged to meet. I wasn’t keen on it, but I said “Ok, I’ll give you a hearing”, because it’s not going to inconvenience me. And we visited a pub called the Preston, which is in Preston Road, Wembley, just around the corner from my work. This was after working hours, I think it was the next day, the next day after this phone call. And I arranged to see him. He said he’d be at a table near the door. There weren’t many people there, because it’s quite quiet after work. And he opened up with a, sort of, general patter about “we can offer you an opportunity to make some money, and it’s very easy”, etc, etc. I didn’t, at the time, think there was anything suspicious, the way it started off. But within a short space of time he was saying, “I know you have a lot of interesting things going on at Hirst Research Centre”, and he mentioned the nature of the work, and I said “yes, yes, there is, but I can’t really discuss that with you”. And from then on, he became a bit more positive about what he was asking me to do. And at that stage I declined. He wanted me to give him some documentation. Right. Now. This man was not a Russian, I’ve got no reason to believe he was.
Beels: How would you describe him then?
Smith: He was about 50, and rather a stocky sort of guy. Do you want as much of a description as I can give you?
Beels: Yes please, if you can, and as full as you can.
Smith: Receding grey hair, swept back. I think he had brown eyes. I would have said about 5 feet 6 inches, he was shorter than I was, but not, you know, unduly so. He had a, what I would say, not an accent, which I take to mean he came from the South-East of England, maybe London. I don’t know if I can remember much more than that. And he was dressed rather smartly, and he had a medium grey suit, with a sort of fleck in it, I think, because he wore this on other occasions.
Beels: Anything else you can remember. Clean shaven?
Smith: Oh yes, no beard or anything. No glasses either.
Beels: No glasses.
Beels: Anything else, any distinguishing features?
Smith: In fact, he had a bit of a dimple in his chin, and I remember, from, thinking he looked a bit like Mick McManus, the wrestler, only a bit older perhaps.
Beels: Ok.
Smith: But, I mean, apart from that, I mean, I did, he never on any occasion gave me any real information about who he was.
Beels: Did he introduce himself as Harry?
Smith: Just Harry.
Beels: No surname?
Smith: I did press him on that point, and he said, “well, it’s best that we don’t discuss that”.
Say: And then what happened?
Smith: Following on from that, I say he made this initial opening to me, and I rejected it because I was concerned at what he was asking me to do. Following on from that, he did phone me again at work, a day or two later, and we had another meeting in this pub the Preston, and I am afraid he persuaded me that what he was offering was a good deal, which was that he would pay me some money in return for some documents. But the point about the documents, the reason I was persuaded – I, I was interested in getting some money easily, I think most people would be - but the reason, I think I was persuaded, was because what he seemed to be interested in, I didn’t think was particularly something to worry about, and it was documentation on processes and not anything of a classified nature. He said he had a client who was interested in the work there, because
they were doing something similar, and they wanted to know what progress had been made at Hirst, and whether there was anything useful to be learned. I think it was more commercially of interest.
Beels: So what sort of offer did he make you?
Smith: Well, the reason I was attracted to it, was because he said “look, I can give you £10,000”, and I thought, “gosh, that’s a lot of money”.
Beels: £10,000?
Smith: But he wasn’t prepared to give it to me in one sum. I mean, I think he, would probably be foolish to give me that amount.
Say: Yes.
Smith: So we arranged that I would give him documentation, on a sort of instalment basis. And he would do likewise with the money.
Beels: Yes, so we are still back in January/February of 1990?
Smith: This was right at the beginning, yes.
Beels: Yes. Right. Ok.
Say: So what sort of money did he give you?
Smith: Mmm. It was a bit puzzling to me, because it was, it wasn’t any, it wasn’t a regular sum. It, I was trying to think about this before, overnight. I never kept a record, for obvious reasons, and I never really had a clue as to how much I’d received in total, but the amounts varied between about £2,000 and about £4,000. But they were amounts, because when I counted, they weren’t round figures - it was £650, or something - it wasn’t something where I could tell this has added up to a certain round figure. I was sure, at the end of it, that I had received more than £10,000, which made me happy. But I wouldn’t like to say exactly how much that was - maybe it was twelve - and this money was given to me over a very short period of time, up until, I say a short period, you know, over about a 2 year period up until April this year. At which time we ceased this relationship, because I didn’t have anything more to give him, or he seemed to be quite happy that was everything he wanted, and that was the end of it.
Beels: So how often were these meetings, how often did you meet with him?
Smith: It was, he didn’t want it to be too regular, because it would make it a bit suspicious. And it was, I think again, I can’t, I don’t think it was on a very regular basis, approximately every 3 months.
Beels: And how would these meetings be arranged?
Smith: He always arranged it, because he would never give me any contact point. He didn’t want me to know any telephone numbers, or anything. So I had to arrange things from the meeting before, and he would always say that, we’d meet on such and such a day, in a certain place, and ...
Beels: In what sort of places did you meet?
Smith: They were always places where there were a reasonable number of people about. He was quite keen on there being a lot of people about. I don’t know why, and, do you want me to give you some of the places?
Say: Yes please.
Smith: I think I can remember more or less all of them.
Say: Let’s try, shall we.
Smith: Well, one of them was at Sudbury Station. I’m not sure if it was Sudbury Town or Sudbury Hill.
Say: Is it a tube station?
Smith: Yes, a tube station, there’s a parade of shops there. At Greenford Road, I think, it’s still part of Greenford Road there, and that was one of the places
we met, I think outside the Post Office.
Beels: Do you remember when this was? Was it early on in this relationship, or later?
Smith: I’m not sure. It was either one of the first, first or second meeting we had was there.
Beels: You went to the Preston first though?
Smith: The Preston.
Beels: Public house, Preston Road, Wembley.
Smith: That’s right.
Beels: Right. This was after you received a phone call from this chap Harry. And this was the phone call you received at your office?
Smith: At my office, yes.
Beels: Right. And you …?
Smith: I, I, I never found out how he got my number ...
Beels: Right. Ok. We’ll come back to that.
Smith: … and.
Beels: But you went to the Preston. Do you remember where the next meeting was?
Smith: It was also at the Preston a couple of days later. But the meeting after that, I think was about April, I think it was the first time he gave me any money, it was April in 1990.
Beels: Do you remember how much was given on that occasion?
Smith: I think that was one of the larger amounts. It was either £4,000, or just under £4,000.
Beels: And that was the first payment?
Smith: Yes. I think he was keen on giving me a lot.
Beels: This was to give you an incentive?
Smith: To get me to go, yes. And it gradually got less. I mean, it wasn’t, it was less and less at the end.
Beels: And how was the money handed to you?
Smith: It was handed in £50 notes. I mean, it was, I did say to him, “look, I don’t, I can’t handle all these large notes”, and he wouldn’t listen. He said, “well, it’s easier for me”,
and I couldn’t, I mean, I couldn’t really argue with that, because if he didn’t give me the money, I didn’t get it.
Beels: And that was April 90. You received £4,000 in £50 notes. Had you handed over any documentation on that occasion?
Smith: I did. It was, what I gave him was modest amounts. I wouldn’t like to say I gave him complete documentation. I, he might have felt that was complete, as far as I was concerned they were drafts and obsolete documents, which were no longer current anyway.
Beels: So, April 90. We’ll move onwards, if you can.
Smith: April 90. Sorry, after that. To be honest, I can’t remember all the dates, because it’s ...
Beels: Well. You just think back to then, and then just tell me, the ones that you can remember.
Smith: Right. I can’t remember if I’ve got the places in the right order, I’m afraid.
Beels: Right. Ok.
Smith: Because it was something I tried to not remember.
Beels: Just tell us some of the places then, that you remember.
Smith: Another place we’d met was in the Harrow shopping area. Not in the covered area, but in an area, I can’t remember the name of the road now, it’s the paved road, a road that has been paved over, the pedestrian walkway. It was outside one of the shops, I think it might have been a TV hire shop, or, he said he’d wait there.
Beels: Ok.
Say: Were these all the same time of day?
Smith: It was, ah no, that’s a point, they were nearly always lunch time. But the, I do remember the first meeting we had was after work, it was after I left, I was on my way home.
Beels: That was in the Preston?
Smith: No, no, no. After that.
Beels: Uh?
Smith: The first serious meeting was when I was on my way home from work. I suppose it must have been about 6:30 or 7:00 o’clock. And that was the one at Sudbury. Because
it was on my way home from work, and it was convenient for me.
Beels: Right. When would this have been about, roughly what time?
Smith: This would have been about April. I said, 6:30 to 7:00.
Beels: 6:30 or 7:00 in the evening, April 1990.
Smith: Yes.
Beels: Ok.
Say: That was the Harrow shopping area, outside the TV hire shop?
Smith: It was, I think it was a hire shop. I mean, I am not sure. I am not very familiar with shops there, but he had made an arrangement, I think it was outside that. Another occasion was - I am not sure if it was Kingsbury or Kenton - it’s near a road called Honeypot Lane. There’s a, it’s a well known traffic circus, and there’s a long parade of shops there. And that was another place we met, one lunch time.