Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 11th August 1992
Time commenced: 20:23 Time concluded: 20:51
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer with me is ...
MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.
Beels: And you are sir ...
Smith: Mr Michael Smith.
Beels: And you are sir ...
Jefferies: Richard Jefferies, solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.
Beels: We are in the Interview Room No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, Mr Smith, I will give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 11th August 1992, and the time by my watch is 8:23 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be
given in evidence. Do you understand the caution?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?
Smith: I do.
MacLeod: Thank you Mr Smith. Can I just talk about last Friday?
Smith: Last Friday, yes.
MacLeod: Yes, yes. Is it right, that you and your wife Pam, went down to the South Coast?
Smith: That’s true.
MacLeod: Did you, how long prior to going down there had you arranged it?
Smith: We arranged it, I think, it was Tuesday, because we, we were planning on either going Wednesday or Friday. But, I think something came up on Wednesday that she couldn’t make it for, the reason came up that she couldn’t go on Wednesday.
MacLeod: Right. Ok.
Smith: Maybe she wasn’t well. I …
MacLeod: So you went on Friday. Did you particularly want to go on Friday?
Smith: I had no reason, in fact I was quite happy with Friday, or Wednesday. I didn’t mind. I was prepared to go any day of the week, except for Thursday, when I had the Induction Course. But as it turned out, Friday was the day we went.
MacLeod: And you were quite happy with that arrangement?
Smith: Happy? I had no reason to feel unhappy about it.
MacLeod: Your wife has told us, that you had a row on Friday, because you didn’t want to go to Brighton, or to the South Coast.
Smith: It wasn’t really a row. I mean, when I say I was happy to go. I was happy to go, but we were disagreeing on the route, as to where we were going to go. And my point was, I’m not sure where she wants to go. We were, all my wife wanted to do was to go by the sea, and she likes the seaside, she likes the beach, to wander around the seaside town. As far as I’m concerned I, it doesn’t particularly bother me or not, but ...
MacLeod: But was she being untruthful, when she said that you had a row, and that you didn’t want to go away for the day?
Smith: No, I, I, which day is she saying we had a row, because I can’t ...?
MacLeod: She’s saying that you didn’t want to go to the South Coast on Friday, and that you had a row.
Smith: What, a row on Friday?
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: Ah, so we’re talking about the Friday morning scenario.
No, no. The reason I wasn’t sure, because we had talked about it earlier in the week, and there had been some, not disagreements, but uncertainty as to when we were going, and she was a bit concerned, that perhaps we wouldn’t go at all. On the Friday I, because I hadn’t been there for a long time, I said, “why don’t we go to Hayling Island”, and she said she didn’t particularly want to go there. So I said “well, do you want to go to Littlehampton, or Bognor”? We decided we wouldn’t go to Worthing or Brighton, because they were less pleasant places, and there was a ...
MacLeod: I’m just answering a knock to the door, it’s now 8:27.
Beels: So, carry on Mr Smith I, I’m listening.
Smith: So we ended up in Bognor Regis, and then travelled on to Littlehampton, and there was no, we ended the day quite happily. The reason for the row, I mean, I don’t recollect it as being a row as such, I mean, we had a disagreement.
Beels: Mr MacLeod has just returned to his seat. Nobody else has entered the interview room in the last minute. Ok Mr Smith, sorry.
MacLeod: Sorry about that interruption.
Beels: Yes, so you went to ...
Smith: We went to Bognor Regis.
Beels: Bognor Regis.
Smith: First we went to Bognor Regis, and secondly we went to Littlehampton.
Beels: But you only argued about the destination you were going, or you wanted to go to. You, you, did you not row about the fact that you were reluctant to go out that day, anyway, to the coast?
Smith: She may have, I think the difference of opinion might have been, she assumed that that was what I didn’t want to go, that wasn’t in fact the case. I wanted her to be a bit more specific about where she wanted to go, because she was the one who suggested the seaside. It didn’t particularly bother me.
MacLeod: But, when it was originally mooted that you would go to the seaside, on the Tuesday of that week, you were originally going to go on the Wednesday, did you say, and the Friday.
Smith: Wednesday or a Friday. I don’t recollect now why we didn’t go on Wednesday. There was some reason which came up, either my wife wasn’t feeling so good, or something of that nature, I don’t recollect what.
MacLeod: And at that juncture, is it right to say that you were still happy with arrangements to go on Friday?
Smith: I was fully expecting to go on Friday, yes.
MacLeod: And your wife was quite happy to go on the Friday?
Smith: Yes. I thought, well I assumed she was. I mean, she didn’t say she wasn’t.
MacLeod: What was it that caused the row between you and your wife, when you said that you didn’t want to go to the seaside, or go to the South Coast on Friday?
Smith: It must have, obviously, it meant more to her than it did to me,
because I don’t recollect it being a blazing row. I mean, there was no, there might have been a bit of unpleasantness, because we ended up going later than we intended. I was more angry about, let’s get moving, because I did say I would rather get moving quickly, so we could be down there by lunchtime. I didn’t really want to be ...
MacLeod: She tells us you didn’t want to go at all. That you didn’t want to go away on Friday.
Smith: She actually said that?
MacLeod: That you didn’t want to. It didn’t suit you, for whatever reason, to go to the seaside last Friday.
Smith: I’m not calling my wife a liar, but ...
MacLeod: No, no, I mean.
Smith: If there was any, you must realise that rows don’t develop just from one specific thing. There may have been some general, I, I think we had, something had been brewing up over the week, anyway. We were having a few off words with each other, and my wife always takes too long to get ready in the morning, to put her makeup on, and these sort of things. And I’m always anxious to get on with things, and I get impatient, particularly when I had made the point I would rather we get off early, so we’re down there by about 12 or one o’clock. And to leave late, and, in fact, we were leaving, I think, about, certainly past eleven, I think it was nearer twelve, and that upset me. So, I was in a bit of a funny mood, I think, by the time we left, because I wanted to get away earlier than that, and she may have taken that as we were having
a row - I don’t.
MacLeod: Well, there was a disagreement, whether it was a row or not.
Smith: I think that the only ...
MacLeod: You had a disagreement.
Smith: Ok. Probably the more pertinent thing, I think, was that I had suggested we go to Hayling Island. She suggested Littlehampton, I think. I said, “well do you want to go somewhere in between, like Wittering”, or I, I just kept putting things to her, to expect her to come back and say “let’s go there”. She didn’t, so I, I drove at quite fast pace to make up time, down towards Brighton, and then we meandered off down to Bognor, having got lost en route. Because I didn’t actually have the map in the car, I just did it on my own.
MacLeod: Ok.
Smith: Because I know the route fairly well.
MacLeod: Ok. Let’s come back to Thursday then, shall we.
Smith: Yes.
MacLeod: The time that you spent in Harrow.
Smith: Yes.
MacLeod: You arrived in Harrow, according to what you’ve told me in the previous interviews, around twelve o’clock, was it? You left
Basingstoke between half ten and eleven.
Smith: Half ten.
MacLeod: Between half past ten in the morning, and eleven.
Smith: And eleven, nearer eleven, I’d say.
MacLeod: That would have, and it would have taken you roughly about what. How long do you reckon would it take you to get to Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: It would have been at least an hour, but, I mean, I didn’t go directly to Harrow on the Hill. I went through, through Harrow, and parked on the outskirts of Harrow. Well, I didn’t park in Harrow on the Hill.
MacLeod: Yes of course. Yeah, yeah. Correction, what I meant was, when you left Basingstoke, you went to Harrow. When I say Harrow, I’m talking about Harrow Town, you went direct there, and ...
Smith: Yes, directly there.
MacLeod: And you went to W.H. Smith’s to make a purchase?
Smith: Yes. Yeah.
MacLeod: Didn’t find what you wanted, and you went then and bought a newspaper, and then you had a walk around.
Smith: Yes.
MacLeod: And then you had a saunter up around Harrow on the Hill, round the Public School, the famous Public School.
Smith: Well, not really round the Public School.
MacLeod: Well, no, but what I mean, is the vicinity.
Smith: It’s the top of the hill, where it’s quite interesting. It has a good view from up there.
MacLeod: Yeah, sure.
Smith: And then I came back down, and I ...
MacLeod: Did you, did you sort of spend any time, sort of, if you like, loitering?
Smith: Loitering?
MacLeod: Well, I say, did you stop.
Smith: Well, I think I sat on a bench, and took in the sunshine.
MacLeod: Yeah. Ok. And how long did you sit on the bench for?
Smith: About ten minutes, I think. I was quite happy just to, because it hadn’t been very good, the weather hadn’t been very good all week, and I was quite happy to do that. I didn’t see anything wrong in that.
MacLeod: No, no, not at all. I’m going to produce some black and white photographs now, exhibit KK/1, they contain a number of black and white photographs. I would like to show Mr Smith, if we can just go through it together, and tell me you recognise this as being Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: Yes, that’s Harrow on the Hill.
MacLeod: Yeah. Were you anywhere near here, in this vicinity?
Smith: Well, I think, I believe that would have been the way up to Harrow on the Hill, I believe.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. The wall that you sat on, is it anywhere round here?
Smith: No, I don’t think I sat anywhere there.
MacLeod: No. Ok. Let’s, let’s go onto another one then. Was that where you sat?
Smith: No, I didn’t sit there, no.
MacLeod: Ok.
Beels: That is the third page, is it Sir?
MacLeod: Yes. I’m just coming, I’ll be showing that rest in the moment.
Beels: Ok.
MacLeod: Is it anywhere near here?
Smith: No, I don’t recognise that particular location.
Smith: No … .No, I didn’t sit anywhere there. … No.
MacLeod: This is another one from the back of St Mary’s Church, Harrow on the Hill. Now, you didn’t hang about anywhere there?
Smith: I don’t recollect being in any of those places.
MacLeod: No. Right. I will return to this exhibit in just a moment. So, if you can just describe to me then, where it was that you sat down and spent ten minutes, having a rest enjoying the sun.
Smith: I believe it was somewhere near the church, either in the church yard, or, um, well I walked around, I wasn’t in one particular location all the time.
MacLeod: No. But you did say you had a sit down for about a few minutes, ten minutes?
Smith: Yes, because it was a sunny day.
MacLeod: Sure. Were you expecting to meet anyone?
Smith: No, why should I?
MacLeod: Well, what took you to Harrow on the Hill that day?
Smith: I explained. I went there for a particular reason, because I did believe I could get this magazine there, and I’m very anxious to buy that magazine. Harrow is a, is a place I travel to from time to time, anyway. I was just out for the day. I mean, I don’t have anything to hide on that front.
MacLeod: Why go to Harrow on the Hill? Why not go to Bognor?
Smith: Well, I didn’t have the time. I mean, I was, I planned to meet my wife later that day, and I decided just to drive, I mean.
MacLeod: Nothing took you to Harrow on the Hill, other than just a spur of the moment fancy, to go to Harrow on the Hill and buy a computer, or a magazine?
Smith: No, no. I was, if I had bought that magazine ...
MacLeod: yeah
Smith: … I would have it to show, but unfortunately ...
MacLeod: But that was the purpose of your going to Harrow Town?
Smith: That was the prime purpose.
MacLeod: Yeah, sure. And then you decided you were going to take a, sort of, a walk around the area?
Smith: Well, let’s get back to the first point. I purchased the newspapers. I had a reason in purchasing the newspapers, to look for job interviews, get a job appointments which ...
MacLeod: But you already had the offer of an appointment, surely, down at Basingstoke?
Smith: Well, that’s a temporary job. It expires in 3 months, and I can still go for interviews, on the basis I take a day off and don’t get paid, and ...
MacLeod: Yes, I know. But I understand that, from your wife, that you were planning to go to New Zealand in about 3 months.
Smith: That’s quite correct.
MacLeod: So why go look for another job then, if you have a temporary job.
Smith: Well, if the New Zealand job, because New Zealand is, is a country of high unemployment as well, if we didn’t manage to be successful in obtaining employment in New Zealand, I’d still be living here, and I’d have no job. So my, my view on this was to put out all options, I have a temporary job for 3 months. If the New Zealand position didn’t change, I could possibly have a permanent job into the future, which might keep me here. But there was nothing strange about that. I’m keeping all my options open. I think that’s quite a reasonable thing to do.
MacLeod: Yes. I mean, it would be reasonable to keep your options open. But I’m rather curious, that having just been for a, sort of, induction course, call it what you like, down at the company in Basingstoke, you make your way directly to Harrow on the Hill to buy a magazine. Then you ...
Smith: No. I think that’s mis-leading.
MacLeod: I’m sorry that’s plain. That’s clear.
Smith: I was driving down the M3, on the way home. And there came a point, where I could turn off on the M25, and I was quite happy driving along. I was feeling rather elated at having finished this course, knowing I was going to the job, my immediate future was secure. So I felt quite good about that, and I feel quite happy driving, and I was going along at a happy pace and enjoying being out.
MacLeod: Well?
Smith: If I’d gone straight home, I wouldn’t have had much to do. Because I was on holiday, I didn’t have really anything, any plans for that day.
MacLeod: But why Harrow on the Hill?
Smith: I explained. Harrow, I know, has a good W.H. Smith’s that does have good stocks of this magazine.
MacLeod: But there must be other places, nearer to your home, where you could have purchased that magazine from W.H.Smith’s.
Smith: I explained to you. W.H. Smith’s in Kingston stocks it occasionally, but ...
MacLeod: There are other W.H.Smith’s, nearer to Kingston than Harrow, I would suggest?
Smith: There’s some. Well, I don’t know of any that are as large as the one in Harrow. It’s a particularly large W.H. Smith’s. The one in Kingston is ...
MacLeod: Come, come, come, come, come on.
Smith: That’s, I’m sorry, I know, I know the facts.
MacLeod: You make your way to Harrow. You went there for a specific purpose.
Smith: I know the facts of why I was there. I know that I can not obtain that magazine in Kingston, unless I’m very lucky to pick up the 3 or 4 copies they seem to order. Harrow W.H. Smith’s must order at least 10 or 15 copies of this magazine. They always have them over at the end of the month, and I saw the July issue there in W.H. Smith’s.
MacLeod: So you, just for a minute, just so I can get clear in my mind, the importance of this magazine. What was the magazine called?
Smith: The magazine was called "Keyboard", which is an American magazine. It’s particularly good on electronic music equipment, and there was a series of articles I was following on drum pattern programming, something else I’ve forgotten. There are a series of articles in there, and also reviews of new equipment, and musical technology techniques.
MacLeod: So it’s your hobby?
Smith: Yes, it’s my hobby. In fact, it’s the one magazine I’ve tried to order through my newsagent, and being American, and an import, which there is no proper outlet in this country, the only other way is to subscribe and pay over the odds for the magazine. So, as I say, I’m not normal perhaps, a normal person wouldn’t go that far out of the way.
MacLeod: But surely if, but surely if they stock it in Harrow on the Hill, W.H. Smith’s in Kingston would be able to provide it for you, or order it.
Smith: I don’t particularly want to place a Standing Order, so I’ve always got to go back to the same place.
MacLeod: You’ve just told me that’s a magazine that you enjoy taking?
Smith: Right. Well, I, I ...
MacLeod: You, you, you take, you go out of your way, by something like, I would suggest, 17, 18 miles, at the very least.
Smith: What’s that, it’s half a gallon of petrol.
MacLeod: To go and buy a magazine. I, I’m telling you, that you went to Harrow on the Hill for a different purpose.
Smith: No. I went to Harrow ...
MacLeod: I’m telling you you ...
Smith: I didn’t. Let’s not beat about the bush. I went to Harrow, not Harrow on the hill.
MacLeod: Yes, you went to Harrow on the Hill.
Smith: Harrow was my main destination.
MacLeod: Harrow was your main destination, but you ultimately went to Harrow on the Hill.
Smith: Because I had time to kill, and I thought I hadn’t been here for a while, I’ll take a stroll. I, I don’t see that as being unusual?
MacLeod: Well, I think that some of your behaviour, over the last, well, from what I know of your behaviour, is certainly unusual, by any standard.
Smith: If you look at my behaviour over perhaps a decade, or more, you’ll probably think I’m a crank, but I’m the way I am, and I ...
MacLeod: Well, I certainly think you’re unusual, I would concede that. Come back to Harrow on the Hill again, I want to know where it was that you sat on the wall?
Smith: I did not sit on a wall.
MacLeod: I thought you said, well did you rest yourself? I thought you
took on in the sun?
Smith: No I sat down on a park ...
MacLeod: On a bench?
Smith: Bench, yes, by the church.
MacLeod: I beg your pardon, you sat on a bench. Where? At the Church?
Smith: There is a bench at the church, and luckily it’s exposed in the sun, which is a good location. I didn’t particularly choose that bench, I might add, I was just walking at the top of the hill, and being hot, and I did feel a little bit tired, I sat down.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Fair enough. I’m going to show you some documents now, that were found in your bedroom.
Smith: Yes.
MacLeod: In the envelopes that contained the £2,000. Do you remember the £2,000, and ...
Smith: Yes I do remember the £2,000.
MacLeod: … the £50 bank notes, new bank notes. Now, I’m going to introduce them individually. This is JS/41. It’s a plain piece of A4 lined paper, with writing on one side. I’m going to show it to Mr Smith. Can you tell me is that your handwriting?
Smith: It looks like my handwriting, yes.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Now, what I’m interested in is the significance of this. Can you tell me how this came to be in the envelope containing the £2,000. Just take your time, have a look, I’d just like you to talk me through this.
Smith: It doesn’t mean much to me, no.
MacLeod: Well, perhaps you ...
Smith: How, how it got, can I, I tried to explain earlier on, that when, on my last day at work, I had a few items in my filing cabinet, I just stuffed them into a bag, and ...
MacLeod: Yes?
Smith: … they were all collected together with, with the money, and they got in the drawer together, that’s why they were together. Now …
MacLeod: I understand all of that. Just talk me through this, what does that say on the top there. You can read your writing better than I can. Will you read it for me please.
Smith: I can’t, actually. Lou, Lou I think is a friend of mine.
MacLeod: Go on.
Smith: Lou is a tennis teacher.
MacLeod: Right. Ok.
Smith: My interest with Lou is not to do with tennis, because he is a friend.
MacLeod: So you’re not interested in tennis.
Smith: No, no. I’m not interested in tennis.
MacLeod: How come you’ve got 4 tennis rackets in your house?
Smith: Four tennis rackets? I don’t have 4 tennis rackets. I do find that ...
MacLeod: There were 4 tennis rackets found in your ...
Smith: Four tennis rackets?
MacLeod: I’ll produce them, I’ll produce them. Right. Just talk me through this, anyway, I mean that’s just an aside. I would like to know what the significance of this is?
Smith: I, I can’t remember.
Beels: What does it say. Read it through to us.
Smith: “Lou’s tennis locations”.
MacLeod: Yes, what does that relate to?
Smith: My friend Lou. I wanted to know where he did his tennis, because he was somebody I contact. I hadn’t had any contact with Lou for over a year. I can be more specific than that, I haven’t contacted Lou since June last year.
MacLeod: Right. Ok. Now who is Lou?
Smith: Lou is, er, my connection with Lou is that he plays a guitar, a flamenco guitar, and our interest together is flamenco.
MacLeod: Tell me his full name. Lou’s full name then please.
Smith: I don’t actually know his full name.
MacLeod: I thought you said he was a friend of yours.
Smith: Well, he’s, he’s a funny character, and, as I say, my connection with him is purely through flamenco. But he has been involved in criminal activity in the past. I don’t particularly want to, to be involved.
MacLeod: