INTERVIEW 2 ~ TAPE 2
Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 8th August 1992
Time commenced: 17:50 Time concluded: 18:17
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Beels from Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is:
MacLeod: I’m Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.
Beels: And you are sir:
Smith: My name is Michael Smith of Kingston upon Thames.
Beels: And you are sir:
Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.
Beels: We are in the Interview Room, No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I’ll give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is 8th August and the time is now 5:50 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?
Smith: Yes I do.
Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and indeed you have your solicitor here present with you. Is that correct?
Smith: That’s correct.
MacLeod: Mr Smith, you realise the reason you were brought here to this police station today? It’s already been fully explained to you?
Smith: No, it has not.
MacLeod: Well let me once again remind you. You’ve been brought to the police station, on suspicion of having committed an offence under Section 1 of the Official Secrets Act 1911, in that you communicated classified intelligence to a hostile agency. Do you understand the gist of what I am saying?
Smith: I understand the gist of it. I don’t understand the details or what this really means in practice.
MacLeod: Right, I would like to begin by talking about what you did today. Can you just explain to me what you did this morning, and just talk me through stage by stage.
Smith: I’m not sure I should answer that. Um, I’ve already discussed this with the other officers what happened this morning. All I will say is: I was going out to get a newspaper and, er, 2 police officers arrested me, and he said more or less what you’ve said today. That’s as much as I know of this event, or what you are talking about now.
MacLeod: Right. Let’s just simplify matters. Can you just describe to me what you did from the time you got up this morning, to the time that you were actually detained by the police officers?
Smith: I made love to my wife this morning.
MacLeod: I don’t think that’s ...
Smith: Well that’s more relevant to me than what you’re discussing now.
MacLeod: Can you tell me what happened after that?
Smith: I went out to get a newspaper.
MacLeod: Before you went out.
Smith: I don’t understand?
MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you went out. Did you go directly to the newsagent’s?
Smith: No, I walked round the block I think.
MacLeod: Can you describe to me the route you took?
Smith: No I can’t. Not exactly.
MacLeod: You’ve lived in the area for many years.
Smith: Well, I was half asleep.
MacLeod: You must have known. You don’t just wander round the area without knowing where you’re going.
Smith: I took a short walk, and I bought a newspaper. That’s all.
MacLeod: What I’m asking you is just to describe to me the route that you took to the newsagent’s? I mean, that’s not too much to ask.
Smith: Well I didn’t take a direct route, if that’s what you mean.
MacLeod: Can you tell me what route you did take?
Smith: Well what has this got to do with this interview?
MacLeod: Well, it’s got a lot to do with it. Would you please answer my question?
Smith: I’m not sure I should answer this, because I don’t understand the question.
MacLeod: I’m trying to clarify what your movements were, from the time that you got up this morning, to the time that you were detained. Now, would you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent’s?
Smith: I don’t think I should make any comment, because I don’t understand the basis of this question. It seems trivial to me.
MacLeod: Well it might sound trivial to you Mr Smith, but I suggest it’s certainly not that to me, and I would like you just to tell me, unless you’ve got something to hide.
Smith: I’ve got nothing to hide.
MacLeod: If you haven’t, then will you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent’s?
Smith: Is something supposed to have happened on the way to the newsagent’s?
MacLeod: I’m not suggesting ...
Smith: Well I think you are. I think you’re suggesting that ...
MacLeod: Please don’t digress from the point. Will you please tell me what route you took. I don’t think this is too hard a question to answer. We’re talking about this morning, from the time that you left your house. I want you to tell me what route you took. Now I don’t think that is an unreasonable question.
Smith: I think I’d better not comment on this.
Beels: Mr Smith, your house is on the corner, is it not, of Burton Road and Park Farm Road?
Smith: That’s correct.
Beels: Now, when you came out of your front door, which direction would you have gone this morning?
Smith: I’m not going to comment on that.
MacLeod: What prompted you to leave your house this morning?
Smith: I wanted to go and get a newspaper. I think this is so trivial, I mean, I thought we were here to discuss some matters of security.
MacLeod: We are, and it’s up to you to what extent you’re prepared to co-operate with us, but I don’t think you’re being quite straight with us.
Smith: Well I want to co-operate fully, but …
MacLeod: Right, that’s it then.
Smith: The implications here, are that you are not giving me the information which you are obviously basing this on, and any answers I give are bound to be perhaps misconstrued later on.
MacLeod: The reason you have your solicitor here is to safeguard any misconstruction that might be put on anything that you say … (Smith intervenes)
Smith: Well, I think anything to do with my movements this morning, or matters that you have in your possession that I have no sight of, I think all this is possibly going to make it more difficult for me to explain myself later on. I’d much rather you give me the evidence - we can discuss it.
MacLeod: Mr Smith, I’m going to ask you once again, please tell me - it’s not too much of a hard question to answer - what route you went from your home ...
Smith: I wanted to co-operate with you this morning. You wouldn’t talk to me. Now I think it’s my turn to say: “it’s your turn to give me some information before I co-operate with you”. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Listen, we’re leading this enquiry Mr Smith. You’re here to help us. You’re here as a private citizen to help police investigating.
Smith: Tell me how I can help you, and I’ll try.
MacLeod: Well, this is the very point I’m trying to make. I want you to tell me what route you took, from the time that you left your home this morning, to the time that you were detained by police.
Smith: I’m not prepared to discuss this matter any further.
MacLeod: Is there something that … (Smith intervenes)
Smith: Nothing happened.
MacLeod: Well, in that case … (Smith intervenes)
Smith: And if you’ve been following my movements, you know nothing happened, because I was just walking. I didn’t do anything. I didn’t talk to anyone.
MacLeod: Well, in that case, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be prepared to tell us precisely what happened when you left home this morning. If you feel that nothing’s been done, and you suggest we’ve been watching you, then ...
Smith: But I think you have been watching me. I think, er …
MacLeod: Well, why don’t you be candid, and tell us what you did this morning.
Smith: Well, if you’ve been watching me, you should know. I mean, I would like to comment on matters which you have got me here for, not to as to where I buy my newspapers, or where I might go for a walk in the morning. I think this is of no consequence to me at all, or to you.
MacLeod: Well, I suggest this is highly relevant to the very point I’m trying to make, and some of the points I’m trying to establish. Now, do you feel that there is something in your behaviour this morning, that’s unreasonable for you to answer?
Smith: Unreasonable, in what way?
MacLeod: Well, I’m asking you. I’m asking you the question. For you to tell me.
Smith: No. I want you to tell me what you think was unreasonable, then I can answer it in a logical way.
MacLeod: Well, I don’t think there was. I just want you to ...
Smith: Well, Ok. I went for a walk, and I bought a newspaper. I see no - there’s no other interest in what I did this morning, before these 2 people came in and picked me up off the street.
MacLeod: Right, Ok. Well, if you’re not going to tell me what route you took, can I just go back to the, er, to the point before you left the house. We’ve been talking to your wife, and we’ve been receiving information from her. I can’t imagine that she would be telling us lies.
Smith: No, I shouldn’t think so.
MacLeod: No. Did you receive any telephone calls?
Smith: I received a telephone call.
MacLeod: From whom?
Smith: God knows. It was somebody who, er, I think it was a wrong number. A foreign guy, um, who I understand was, er, he’d mistaken me for somebody else. I just humoured him and put the phone down.
Smith: Is there any more?
MacLeod: I want you to think about that question again Mr Smith. I want you to reflect on it just for a minute … (Smith intervenes)
Smith: I don’t need to reflect, there’s nothing.
MacLeod: Did you answer my question?
Smith: You don’t have access to my phone, so how do you know if there was any calls anyway. My wife might have said there was a phone call; somebody asked for me, I spoke to, to some guy who I’d never spoken to before. I must add that, and he was talking some mumbo jumbo and, I ...
MacLeod: You’re a liar. You are a liar. Your wife has told us that you got a telephone call this morning from a man called George, at the Lab.
Smith: I told a cock and bull story, because I didn’t know who the guy was, and I didn’t want to upset her.
MacLeod: Why should a wrong number, a wrong ...
Smith: Because we’d just been making love. Actually, we’d been disturbed twice that morning. The postman knocked; she ran downstairs; she came back up again. I don’t like being disturbed while I’m making love, and it was a bloody nuisance. Now, who this guy was, who called, I’ve no idea. I just humoured him and said, “Yeah George he’s somebody I worked with”. Why should I lie to my wife about it, apart from just to keep it ... (MacLeod intervenes)
MacLeod: Well, I can’t imagine, I can’t imagine if it was a misdirected phone call, why you would wish to say to your wife, it was a George. Why could you not just have said it was a wrong number.
Smith: I don’t know who George is.
MacLeod: This is what you’re telling me.
Smith: Well, if you want to make something of this point, then what, what is it about this phone call that upsets ...
MacLeod: I’m not going to leave this point.
Smith: I’m glad you’re not.
MacLeod: I want you to tell me frankly, and honestly, the nature of this call from this man George?
Smith: The nature of the call was, he was, um, I can’t remember the exact words, er, something about, um ...
MacLeod: What did he say? Can you remember? Did you answer the telephone?
Smith: No, my wife answered the phone.
MacLeod: Right, Ok, she answered the telephone. What did the man say to your wife?
Smith: She didn’t say, she just said it’s somebody asking for me, I thought. Surely this isn’t an important point.
MacLeod: If it was somebody asking for you, if it was somebody asking for you, how could that possibly be a misdirected phone call?
Smith: Maybe it was somebody who had got my name from the phone book, or something.
MacLeod: Come on. Come on. Stop messing about.
Smith: Why should I be messing about?
MacLeod: You’re wasting our time.
Smith: Look, if you want to go on in this manner, then perhaps we should stop the interview here, but if you want to discuss the matters that you have got me here for, which I thought was far more important.
MacLeod: I think quite honestly, this is central to the very point of ...
Smith: How is it central, if somebody phones me up at home?
MacLeod: Well, I’m, I’m, I’m establishing quite clearly your dishonesty in this particular point. Firstly, you said that you received a misdirected phone call. Then you tell me that your wife answered the telephone to a man,
a foreign sounding, a foreign accented male who asked for you by name, and you’re telling me that that was a misdirected call.
Smith: Well I, I told my wife that perhaps he sounded German, I don’t know who he was.
MacLeod: But you’ve just told me, you’ve just told me that he told …
Smith: Told you what?
MacLeod: Well, you’ve just told me that the telephone call, that you received, was misdirected. It was a wrong number.
Smith: I thought it might have been.
MacLeod: Your wife has told us, that the telephone call was from a man named George.
Smith: Yeah, because I said to her “Oh, I think it’s some guy I used to work with, at, um ...”
MacLeod: But he asked for you by name.
Smith: Well, I don’t know how he got my number. How on earth could I be expected to know who’s on the other end of the line? I’ve never heard the guy from Adam, you know. How on earth do I know who this chap is, I mean …?
MacLeod: But did he or did he not ask for you by name?
Smith: I think he did, but I don’t know, you’ll have to speak to my wife, because I ....
MacLeod: Well we have spoken to your wife.
Smith: Well, what did she say? I don’t know. Did she say that?
MacLeod: I just said a few moments ago. There was a telephone call from a man named, a man named George.
Smith: George, well so it was.
MacLeod: And that the caller asked for Michael Smith.
Smith: There’s a load of, er, Smith’s.
MacLeod: What Michael Smith’s?
Smith: There’s another one down the road where I live, actually.
MacLeod: Come on.
Smith: If he’s still there. Yes there was. Because we had some friends, er, who tried to contact us in the past, who got this other guy down the road.
MacLeod: If you’ve got nothing to hide Mr Smith.
Smith: Well, I’m not. Am I hiding anything? I’ve been advised not to comment on these matters, but you’re making such a, a big thing of trivia, that I thought I was here for something much more serious that I wouldn’t have to comment
on. But if you want to trivialise the whole matter, then go ahead, but I want to get this sorted out. I’ve got nothing to hide, and the sooner you can sort it out the better.
MacLeod: When I asked you at the start of this interview, for an account of your movements, of what may have happened to you before you left the house this morning, you omitted to mention the telephone call.
Smith: That’s got nothing to do with my movements. The call is ...
MacLeod: No, I asked you, what you did when you got up this morning. You omitted to mention it. I mean …
Smith: I didn’t think it was important. Probably forgotten about it. I mean, it was a trivial call, and, er ...
MacLeod: But I come back to this point. If it was a trivial call ...
Smith: Who was this person? Do you know this guy George? I don’t know him.
MacLeod: That’s the point I’m asking you.
Smith: Well, if …
MacLeod: If he asked for you by name?
Smith: I’ve had people phone me up before at home, and asked for me by name, and it’s been somebody else who they’re after,
and this guy, because he’s foreign, I mean, I just took it that the guy’s an idiot, and got the wrong number, and I just humoured him. I mean, who else would, er, because I’ve had people on the phone before who keep ringing back, and they, they think, er …
Beels: They think what?
Smith: Well, you talk to somebody on the phone, and they get the impression that you’re, um, either the person they do want to talk to, or they don’t believe you. I had a phone call at 3 o’clock in the morning.
MacLeod: I’m not interested.
Smith: No, no, no. This is very important.
MacLeod: Don’t digress, stick to the point.
Smith: This is the point. I’m sorry, this is the point. I spoke to somebody on the phone at 3 o’clock in the morning, who was ringing from Yorkshire, who wanted to speak to somebody who wasn’t there. Kept ringing back. I thought, “sod this”, I’m not going to put up with this. So I just, I humoured the guy, and he went away.
MacLeod: Stick to the point of the question being asked of you. I come back again to this telephone call, that you received this morning, which for some reason you chose to ignore, and yet your wife quite willingly volunteered the information in interview without any problem.
Smith: Well, she answered it. She probably remembered it better than I do. I’ve had a lot of things go wrong today for me.
MacLeod: Well, maybe so, but just answer the point. What was the telephone … What was the nature of the conversation between you and this man George?
Smith: I don’t honestly remember all the details. I mean, it was something about, um, something about being urgent. He wanted to see somebody urgently or something. I don’t know what that meant.
MacLeod: But if it was a wrong number, why would he enter into any conversation with you?
Smith: I don’t know. He might have thought that I was the person he wanted to talk to. I, I …
MacLeod: Well, you were the person, because …
Smith: Was I?
MacLeod: he asked to speak to Michael Smith. So, what you’re telling …
Smith: Well, he, he said that because I am. That’s my name; I said yes it’s me. I didn’t know who he was. Perhaps you know who he is, but I don’t know. I say, I’ve never heard that, that, er, voice before. And that, that is the honest truth. I mean, why should I lie about that? I’ve never heard that man [George] before.
MacLeod: And your wife says that he introduced himself as George.
Smith: Yeah, George who? I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know the second name or anything.
MacLeod: I want you just to think for a minute on this telephone conversation, because …
Smith: Can we get a move on, to something else.
MacLeod: No, we’re not. We are not. I will dwell on this point as long as it takes. I want to know what the nature of that telephone call was this morning.
Smith: I’ve already told you what the nature of that call was.
MacLeod: Well, you’re lying. You are lying through your teeth.
Smith: Thank you very much.
MacLeod: I want you to think again.
Smith: So, what did my wife say, because she wasn’t talking to this man. She couldn’t say anything. What on earth are you basing this on? Did you get this guy George to phone me up? I think that’s what it must be. Because if you know what he said, and I don’t even remember it, obviously you’re playing cat and mouse with me. I’m sorry, I don’t want to be pedantic about this, but I thought I was here to discuss some serious breach of security, and you’re discussing a bloody phone call, which has got … you know, it’s so trivial it seems ludicrous. See what I’m saying? No, you don’t.
MacLeod: I can see what you’re saying, but you know, as well as I do, that that’s not the truth.
Smith: Well put the cards on the table. Who is this George then? Is he somebody I should know?
MacLeod: He’s somebody I would like you to talk to me about, because I’m sure …
Smith: I don’t know George. If I knew George, I’d tell you who the guy was. I mean, I don’t know, I don’t know where he lives, or anything about him.
MacLeod: So what did he say then, when, when he entered into this conversation?
Smith: It wasn’t a conversation. It was just a yes, no, yes, no, sort of thing. I didn’t discuss anything with him.
MacLeod: So what did he say then, if I can come back to that point? What did he say?
Smith: He said something about, something being urgent, but I couldn’t quite understand, because his accent was so bad. That’s all. … Come on, we don’t want any silence in here. We’re wasting tape. I’m sorry, I don’t … I wanted to make a ‘no comment’ type of interview, and you, you’re spoiling it.
MacLeod: Who is, who is Victor?
Smith: Victor? I’ve got, um, my friend. I have a Spanish friend, who has a son called Victor.
MacLeod: Do you know any other Victors?
Smith: I don’t think so. Not, not at the present. I don’t know maybe I knew some in the past.
MacLeod: Have you known any Victors in the past?
Smith: Victor. If I did, it was a very long time ago, because I don’t remember any other Victors. Victor’s not a common name. I don’t think it is.
MacLeod: I’m putting it to you, that this telephone conversation this morning, that you had with this man George, concerned somebody called Victor, and I’m putting it to you, that you knew perfectly well who this Victor was, and I further suggest that that was the reason that you left your house this morning.
Smith: I think that is just hypothetical nonsense.
MacLeod: It’s not hypothetical.
Smith: Why are we picking up being so damn serious about this. Look, just discuss it.
MacLeod: I will prove evidentially ...
Smith: What is it you’re trying to say?
MacLeod: I will prove evidentially.
Smith: What, and what evidence are we talking about?
MacLeod: That’s for you to wait and find out. I am telling …
Smith: I am trying to find the ways, can you please present it now.
MacLeod: I’m telling you, I have evidence.
Smith: Evidence of what sort?
MacLeod: I’m just … That’s a matter for you to wait and see. I want you to tell me, in your own words, who this Victor is.
Smith: I cannot tell you who this Victor is, because I don’t … I … the only Victor I know is the son of a friend of mine, and he’s about 15 years old, and I can honestly say there’s no other Victor that I can remember for - perhaps since - at University; I might have known a Victor. I can’t remember any other Victors.
MacLeod: Well, you’re a liar. I know that.
Smith: How often do you find somebody called Victor? You might hear about somebody.
MacLeod: No, it’s not a common name. That’s why I feel that there’s, you know …
Smith: It’s not a common name.
MacLeod: an easily recollectable name, and you’re telling me, you can’t remember the name. Just you wait. Tell me.
Smith: Well, who is this Victor?
MacLeod: That’s why I’m asking you. I’m asking you to tell me.
Smith: Well I can’t answer you, if you give me no facts to go on. Because I don’t know. Are we talking about 20 years ago? Or is it longer?
MacLeod: Are we?
Smith: I don’t know.
MacLeod: But I want you to try to recollect, first of all, the nature of this telephone call this morning. I want you to tell me, once again, what was it all about?
Smith: I don’t know what it was about, because the guy didn’t make it clear. I mean, it was just, er, the meanderings of an idiot, I thought. I mean, the guy just waffled on about something, and I just said yes, no, yes, no, or something like that, and put the phone down. Well, I can answer the phone how I damn well please, it’s my phone.
MacLeod: Of course you can, course you can, but what has not been clear from this interview is the reason why you chose, in the first instance, to ignore that you received a telephone call this morning, and secondly ...
Smith: I did not.
MacLeod: and secondly …
Smith: I want this on record. I did not ignore that point. You were the one who raised it.
MacLeod: Yes?
Smith: Why should I discuss every phone ... I told you, on my way, I made love to my wife this morning, and isn’t that more important to a man? Is it not?
MacLeod: It’s not a … it’s not a subject I particularly feel that is relevant to this enquiry.
Smith: Well I think it’s very important, because I’m a living person. I’m not a machine that answers questions like a robot. I did the things I felt like doing this morning, and I did them,
and I was prevented in doing anything further by these 2 guys, who picked me up for whatever reason, which you won’t give me.
MacLeod: Right. Let’s go back to the telephone conversation.
Smith: What else can I tell you about?
MacLeod: What, what were you asked to do?
Smith: I wasn’t asked to do anything.
MacLeod: You’re a liar.
Smith: Am I?
MacLeod: You are, and I’ll prove it.
Smith: You can prove what you damn well please. I, I have no record of that phone call.
MacLeod: Answer, answer the question. What were you … what was the nature of the conversation, and what were you going to do when you left the house this morning?
Smith: When I left the house this morning, I was going to get a newspaper.
MacLeod: And for some reason, or other, you can’t remember what route you took.
Smith: No. I said I wasn’t going to discuss it, because I didn’t know why you were asking that question.
MacLeod: Well, I mean, if you want …
Smith: If I knew why you were asking that question, I would tell you. I’ve got no, no reason to hide it.
MacLeod: But it seems to me, to be highly illogical.
Smith: No, it’s very logical.
MacLeod: If you, if you’ve got nothing …
Smith: If you, if you … Look, if you talk to people as much as I do, you realise how much logic you have to use in conversation to get what you want from them, and I don’t believe that the way you’re asking these questions is getting to the truth. If you want me to respond in the way that’s going to give you something, and me something, out of this interview, then I presume you should ask the questions that, that make it logical for me to answer them. You’re asking me questions without giving me the facts. Why should I, why should because I’m only here on a so-called serious charge, or whatever it might be.
MacLeod: Listen, you don’t expect for one minute, that I’m going to put all my cards on the table at once.
Smith: Well don’t, so I won’t do either. Listen, if you want to play the game this way …
MacLeod: Look, you’re the one …
Smith: we’ll stay here all night.
MacLeod: You’re the one, you’re the one that’s here to answer questions, concerning a very serious matter.
Smith: And you won’t tell me why.
MacLeod: It’s up to you, if you feel that ...
Smith: No, it’s not up to me, it’s up to you. You’re the one controlling this interview.
MacLeod: You have an obligation to ...
Smith: Please, ask me the questions that will enable me to answer …
MacLeod: Right.
Smith: in the way you want.
MacLeod: Right, let’s go back to the beginning again. Mr Smith, tell me what you did, from the time you got up this morning?
Smith: Every last detail?
MacLeod: Every.
Smith: Ok. Right. I got up. The wife said, er, she, she was hungry, or she was thirsty. She wanted a cup of coffee, right. So I got up, and I made a cup of coffee, and I made a bowl of cornflakes - the crunchy nut ones that I like - and we sat down, and we had some cornflakes, etc, and we made love. Now, I think that’s quite normal. I, I’m not ashamed of that. Then we, er, we were sitting there talking about things. I can’t remember in detail what it was about. Honestly, I can’t remember, because it was just what a wife and husband talk about when they wake up in the morning, and then the phone went. I don’t know what time it was, about 10 to 9 or 5 to 9, something like that. I can’t remember. I didn’t look at the clock, but it was shortly before my wife was due to get up,
because she had to go to a back appointment. An osteopath. Right - the phone went - my wife answered the phone, and there was a conversation with somebody. She said, “I think he wants to talk to you”, and then I’m not clear exactly what the guy said. It was some, some, I couldn’t understand him entirely, because it was, er, I’m not sure if it was indistinct the way he was talking, but I’m sure I asked him to repeat something, but it was a bit of nonsense which I, I didn’t understand the connection with me. But I humoured him, as I said before. Then, um, we started getting ready. My wife said she, um, we discussed something about my wife’s earlier schooling, the friend she had at school.
MacLeod: Can we go back to the telephone conversation. Can you tell me again what the nature of the conversation was? Your wife answered the telephone, she said ...
Smith: I don’t know what the guy said to her, because you’ll have to ask her that.
MacLeod: Yes we’ve done that.
Smith: Yes, and all she told me was that somebody called George. I don’t know George, I don’t know. Actually, I thought there was a George I used to work with years ago. I can’t remember another George though. Again, it’s not somebody I know of - I don’t know of somebody called George at the moment – and, er, I don’t remember much about the call. I mean, she, she said “I think he wants you”. I just discussed something with him, which was trivia as far as I can remember. Why, I remember something, something being very urgent. I thought
well, Ok, it might be urgent for him.
MacLeod: So you’re saying now, that he wanted to discuss something with you?
Smith: Well, I don’t know, I don’t remember the … how can I remember details of the conversation that I barely remember. Am I saying too much here. I mean, I think this guy’s leading me up the garden path.
Beels: We’re coming to the end of this tape.
Smith: You can change tapes.
Beels: Which I’m going to turn over now. The time is 6:17.
Person interviewed: Michael John Smith
Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station
Date of interview: 8th August 1992
Time commenced: 18:19 Time concluded: 18:41
Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod
Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels
Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)
Beels: The time is 6:19. This is an interview between Detective Superintendent MacLeod and Mr Smith. Interview continues.
MacLeod: Mr Smith, if I can just go back to this, er, this point again …
Smith: What point, what point is that?
MacLeod: Concerning the telephone conversation this morning. Your wife received the telephone call.
Smith: The phone went. My wife picked it up.
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: I didn’t say she received the call at all.
MacLeod: Well, if she picked it up, she received it. But she answered the telephone, and she said it was for you. Is that correct?
Smith: I think that’s what she said.
MacLeod: What else did she say?
Smith: I think she said, "I think it’s a guy called George", or something.
MacLeod: It’s a guy called George. Did that immediately register with you?
Smith: No, it didn’t.
MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you picked up the telephone, and you spoke to George.
Smith: Well, if that’s what his name is, I don’t know if that’s what his name was. I can’t …
MacLeod: A man introduced himself as George.
Smith: A man who said he was called George. Yes.
MacLeod: Right, Ok, Ok. What did George say to you?
Smith: I don’t remember all the details, but he said something about …
MacLeod: Can we just, just. I’d rather take just a minute to reflect on it.
Smith: Well, I can’t give you details, because it was so - um, it was over in a flash - and I, I don’t remember …
MacLeod: Right, Ok.
Smith: what was said exactly. All I can give you is the gist of the conversation.
MacLeod: Right, let’s see if we can go just here.
Smith: All I remember, from the conversation, was that it was somebody - he sounded like he was in some sort of trouble.
He said, I, um, I can’t remember what word I used before that he said. Urgent, or something like that. He sounded like he was in trouble. Could I meet him, or something like that, I don’t know. I don’t know what was said. I think that was all there was. I mean, I don’t remember there being any, …
MacLeod: I think …
Smith: any sort of discussion about who George was, or ...
MacLeod: Well, maybe there was no discussion as to who George was, but did he make any reference to anything else, or anybody else?
Smith: Oh God. How do I, I don’t, I don’t remember him saying very much. It was, it was over in such a short time. I, I can’t give you information that I can’t remember. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Right. I could understand if that was a fairly lengthy conversation, but ...
Smith: It wasn’t a lengthy, lengthy ...
MacLeod: I could understand if you couldn’t remember the detail. But, I mean, this was over in a flash, and you can’t remember what ...
Smith: Well I, I was half asleep. I wasn’t really interested in the, what the guy had to say. I mean, what other excuse can I give. I mean, if I could remember word for word, if I had a photographic memory - great - but I don’t have that sort of memory. I can only give you the flavour of the conversation, which was, was something about this guy being in trouble. I don’t know what trouble he was in, he didn’t describe it.
MacLeod: Who was in trouble, George was in trouble?
Smith: George was in trouble, I think. Whoever George was.
MacLeod: Why should he ring you to say he was in trouble?
Smith: I don’t … Because he got the wrong name, I guess. I don’t know. What, what can I say to the guy. I was half asleep. I’d just been making love to my wife. What do you expect me to say to him? I mean, I, I’m not going to have a very philosophical conversation with a guy when I really want to get back to my wife and her problems. She had a back appointment this morning. I hope she went there.
MacLeod: I will repeat once again. What was, what was said to you on the telephone by George?
Smith: I’ve described to you in as much detail as I can.
MacLeod: But you haven’t.
Smith: If I could give you more detail I would, but I, I’m sorry I can’t. I mean, I’m not avoiding the question, I’m not trying to, er, keep anything back. I’m just telling you what I remember of the conversation. It was so, um, it was so trivial and so, er, done so quickly, how can I possibly remember more than that? I told you, what I’d said. I said yes, no, that sort of thing. I don’t think I actually discussed anything with him.
MacLeod: I suggest you did.
Smith: Did I?
MacLeod: Well, he certainly made …
Smith: How do you know I discussed. I don’t think I did discuss anything with him. How could you possibly know that, unless George was somebody that you’ve asked to ring me up. I don’t know. I, I presume this is all about the job for Ferranti, isn’t it? Is it? You’re trying me out, that’s what you’re doing, isn’t it?
MacLeod: Tell me about the telephone conversation.
Smith: Is this Positive Vetting?
MacLeod: We’ll come back to that in just a moment.
Smith: Ok.
MacLeod: Talk to me about your telephone conversation.
Smith: I had a telephone conversation with, er, a guy called George, who I don’t know, and he discussed something with me, which, er, basically was about him being in trouble, or something being urgent, and I ... That’s all I remember.
MacLeod: He, you’re right. Who was in trouble? Was George in trouble?
Smith: I think George was in trouble. I don’t know why. I think he had …
MacLeod: Well, why did he want to discuss it with you?
Smith: Because … I don’t know. I think perhaps, either somebody gave him the wrong number, or maybe, er, maybe he looked up in the book and got it wrong - I don’t know. But I mean, if I knew George, I’d tell you who he was. I’m quite serious about that. I, I do not know who George was. The only George I can remember is a George I knew 12 or 13 years ago, and it certainly wasn’t him.
MacLeod: So George rang you this morning and said he was in trouble?
Smith: No, He didn’t say he was in trouble. I said, I think he was in trouble. The way he …
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: he sounded.
MacLeod: What words did George use?
Smith: Well he sounded, you know, like these foreigners, a bit …
MacLeod: What words did he use?
Smith: I don’t remember, but it was something about it’s urgent. You know, something about … I don’t, I think, I don’t think he actually said trouble. I think that’s my word. I, I got the feeling he was in trouble, the way he was talking. I’m sorry, if I could say more than that I would, but what can I tell you?
MacLeod: I think you can say more than that, but your, your memory is quite convenient. When it suits yourself, you can remember.
Smith: I don’t like being accused of being a liar. If you’ll, if you think I’m lying then tell me what, what I’m not saying, and I’ll, I’ll put you right.
MacLeod: No, that’s what I want you to tell me. I’m giving you ...
Smith: I’ve told you. Look, this point. Can I … Look, this is ridiculous. I had a conversation with a man I don’t know. I, I talked gibberish to him, like he talked gibberish to me, and we finished, and that was the end of it. Now, what on earth can I have in common with George. I don’t even know who George is. I, I can’t stop people ringing me up at home.
MacLeod: Right, Ok If we accept you don’t know who George is ...
Smith: That’s absolutely true. I mean, I do not know who George is.
MacLeod: Right, Ok, Ok.
Smith: If George is his real name. I don’t know if it is.
MacLeod: So you didn’t know who the caller was. That’s what you’re saying to me.
Smith: That’s absolutely it. You’ve got it in a nutshell.
MacLeod: But the caller did speak to you, and discuss with you ...
Smith: I don’t think he discussed anything with me.
MacLeod: Or that he …
Smith: He made a few statements.
MacLeod: He made a, yes, he made a statement.
Smith: And I said yes, no, yes, no, as far as I know.
MacLeod: Well, how would, how would you make a statement saying yes, no, yes, no?
Smith: Because I was half asleep. I’d been making love to my wife. I wasn’t interested in talking to anybody.
MacLeod: You were half asleep, and you just tell me you’ve made love to your wife. I mean, if you’ve made love to your wife, and you’re half asleep ...
Smith: Well I was tired. I was tired and I …
MacLeod: Well I think you’re, you’re hedging, you’re hedging the issue here.
Smith: But what has that got, what has my personal relationships with my wife …
MacLeod: I’m not interested in that, but I’m just trying to ...
Smith: But it’s very relevant to this discussion, because you’re talking about something that overlapped with love-making with my wife.
MacLeod: I’m …
Smith: I, I object to you making it sound like it’s trivial, and I can just pick up the phone and talk to somebody as though I’m at the office on a Monday morning. It’s not like that, making love, if you’ve ever made love yourself ...
MacLeod: The point I’m making, the point I’m making is that you’re telling me that you were so drowsy, so sleepy ...
Smith: I was sleepy.
MacLeod: That you didn’t understand ...
Smith: You ask my wife what I’m like in the morning.
MacLeod: I’m not …
Smith: She’ll tell you. She can’t get me out of bed in the morning. I’m hardly …
MacLeod: And yet you entered into this conversation?
Smith: It wasn’t a conversation, for fuck’s sake. I keep telling you. The conversation, as far as it was, on my side, was yes, no or 3 bags full. I didn’t have a conversation with this man. Now, if he phoned up for whatever reason, what can I, I can’t stop him phoning me. Who is he? If you know who he is, tell me, but I have no clue who this man George is. I’m quite open about this. I, I do not know who George is.
MacLeod: Was the name Victor mentioned?
Smith: It might have been. I. I don’t remember.
MacLeod: I suggest it was.
Smith: Well maybe it was. I, my wife couldn’t have told you that, because she didn’t talk to this man for, for more than a couple of minutes, couple of seconds. Well, who is Victor?
MacLeod: You’re going to tell me that.
Smith: I do not know any Victors, apart from the son of a friend of mine. Do you want me to reiterate this.
MacLeod: No.
Smith: The only Victor that I … I want this on tape. The only Victor that I know is a Spaniard, who is the son of a man called Antonio Lara Molina. He lives in Epsom, 20 Sefton Road. You can check with him. His son is named Victor, and we’re quite good friends.
MacLeod: And that’s the only Victor that you know, or have ever met?
Smith: Well I don’t, I wouldn’t like to say ever known. I mean, I would be an idiot to say I never knew a Victor in the past, wouldn’t I?
MacLeod: But what I mean is, did you ever have, um, a friendship with a man called Victor?
Smith: A man. You talking about sexual relationships here?
MacLeod: Don’t be facetious.
Smith: No, I don’t have sex with men.
MacLeod: Don’t be facetious.
Smith: Well, I think you are.
MacLeod: Answer, answer the question.
Smith: I had no relationship with anybody.
MacLeod: Were you an acquaintance? Were you an acquaintance of a man called Victor?
Smith: Victor who?
MacLeod: I want you to tell me.
Smith: I do not know any Victors. Look, I’m saying I don’t know, I never knew a Victor in the past. I would be stupid to say a thing like that, but the only Victor that I know now, I’ve explained who that is.
MacLeod: You did explain that bit. Can we just keep to the, to the central question.
Smith: Ok. Well - Victors in the past - maybe I knew a Victor. I mean, I could, I can’t remember 20 years back. Maybe there was somebody I knew at university was called Victor. Maybe I worked with somebody, or knew somebody ...
MacLeod: Well, listen.
Smith: I honestly can’t remember a Victor.
MacLeod: Will you please keep to the point that’s been, the question that has been asked.
Smith: Well, this is the point. You’re trying, you asked me about Victor, and I say I do not know a Victor, and if I did, well, why should I hold back and not tell you?
MacLeod: Because I suggest that’s the reason that you went out this morning, because this whole telephone conversation was about Victor.
Smith: Victor who?
MacLeod: We … Well, I want you to tell me.
Smith: If this man said Victor. I mean, I was humouring the guy anyway. You can ask my wife, I mean, the way I was talking was yes, no, yes, no, or something. I, I didn’t know who the guy was. I mean,
I told you George means nothing to me. I mean, who is George? Is he one of your men? Is he?
MacLeod: I’ll ask, I’ll ask the questions.
Smith: Why do you not answer my questions?
MacLeod: I ask the questions here, Mr Smith.
Smith: Then get on with it.
MacLeod: Look me in the eye, and tell me who Victor is?
Smith: Victor who? Mention his second name - perhaps I might know him - but Victor on its own? I mean, I do not know anybody called Victor, except Victor Molina, a Spaniard. How can I answer this man in any better way. I do not know a Victor. Right.
MacLeod: I will demonstrate at some stage of this investigation, Mr Smith, quite clearly …
Smith: Get on with it.
MacLeod: I’m certainly not going to do that now. I will demonstrate that you do know a Victor.
Smith: Victor who?
MacLeod: And I’m giving you the opportunity to tell me.
Smith: Look, if, if you gave me a month of Sundays, I could not give you a Victor that I know, or give a second name even. I mean, I, I, we’re talking about Victor ... Where does he live? What’s my relationship with this guy? I don’t know. I mean, you’re, you’re talking very hypothetically.
MacLeod: I’m not talking hypothetically.
Smith: Yes you are.
MacLeod: Maybe to you, but not to me.
Smith: You are. It’s talking in riddles. I mean, if you were straight about this, you’d tell me who this guy’s supposed to be, and what’s my relationship to him.
MacLeod: Why did you leave your house this morning?
Smith: To get a newspaper, I told you that.
MacLeod: Where did you buy the newspaper?
Smith: I bought it round at my local newsagent’s
MacLeod: What road is that?
Smith: You, you know that, because I was picked up on the way back from there.
MacLeod: Where were you before that?
Smith: I was at home.
MacLeod: No, right. Let’s go back to the beginning. You left home. What route did you take?
Smith: Do I have to answer all these questions? I, I don’t know what this question of route is. There’s something very sinister about this question, about which route I took.
MacLeod: Well …
Smith: I don’t know what it is, but I’m not going to answer questions that might incriminate me, based on something which I don’t have any, anything to go on. You are playing around here.
MacLeod: No, I’m not.
Smith: If I’m supposed to have met some guy called Victor, while I was out this morning, that, that obviously means something to you, doesn’t it? Does it?
MacLeod: If you feel there’s something in …
Smith: I think you’re trying to make me say something that I don’t understand.
MacLeod: I’ll ask the, I’ll ask the, I’ll ask the questions Mr Smith. I’ll ask the questions.
Smith: Ok.
MacLeod: If you feel that there was something that might incriminate you, during that short time that you were out of your home this morning.
Smith: I was out walking and I, I don’t remember anything happening on that walk.
MacLeod: Right, Ok.
Smith: So, if it did, it’s something that you know about that I don’t.
MacLeod: Ok. Let’s talk about the walk then, from the home. Where did you go? What, did you turn left?
Smith: I’m not going to discuss that with you, until you get me some evidence.
MacLeod: But, but I’m certainly not going to tell you ...
Smith: If I’m supposed to have met some guy, who I say I don’t know. Is that what you’re trying to make me say?
MacLeod: I’m, I want you to tell me.
Smith: I don’t want to say anything that is wrong. If you want me to say something.
MacLeod: I’m not asking you to say anything other than …
Smith: But I think you’re asking me to say something. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: I’m not asking you to say anything other than the truth.
Smith: I’m glad this is on tape, because it’ll show the way you’re trying to twist what I’m saying, into something you want me to say. I’m sorry.
MacLeod: I’m trying to. I clearly …
Smith: Well then …
MacLeod: Unambiguously …
Smith: Look, give me a straight question, not this dilly-dallying, will you, for fuck’s sake. I want to get out of here. Now just tell me a, b, c, and we’ll get it over with, because you’re wasting my time.
MacLeod: Well, if you want to satisfy that. If you say you want to get this over with. Right then ...
Smith: Then, ask me a sensible question, instead of talking about something that didn’t happen.
MacLeod: So, I mean, what’s the difficulty in telling me the route that you took this morning?
Smith: I’ll, I’ll tell you the route.
MacLeod: Yes.
Smith: If I can remember it exactly, but I’m not going to tell you until you tell me why you are asking that question.
MacLeod: And yet, er, Mr Smith …
Smith: Because I think you’re trying to say I did something on that route. that I didn’t.
MacLeod: What I’m saying to you is …
Smith: I did not do anything on that route. If you’re trying to say I passed some information to somebody on that route, is that what you’re saying? Are you trying to say that I’m actually going out this morning to do something, er, against the Official Secrets Act? If you’re saying that …
MacLeod: I am not suggesting ...
Smith: I. I want to know what I’m supposed to have done when I was out.
MacLeod: I’m not suggesting anything. I’m not suggesting anything.
Smith: Well then.
MacLeod: I just feel it’s rather convenient that you …
Smith: It’s not convenient at all.
MacLeod: That you can remember …
Smith: I’ve got nothing to hide about what I did this morning.
MacLeod: That you can remember in fine detail …
Smith: Well?
MacLeod: Down to the personal point of making love to your wife, and to what you discussed up to the point that you left your house, and yet you’re not prepared to answer my question on the route that you took, from your home to the point that you were arrested by the police. Now, I don’t see …
Smith: But where did I go? I mean, I don’t know what I’m supposed to have done when I was out.
MacLeod: Well.
Smith: If you told me what I’d done, then we could talk about it, but I just walked; I didn’t do anything while I was walking. I bought a newspaper. I came back, and was arrested, and I, that’s all that I think is significant. If the route I took had something to do with some - this guy called George, or something - if that’s what you’re suggesting? I don’t know what it might be, because you’re obviously very interested in George, whoever this George is.
MacLeod: If you, if you, if you feel that you’ve got nothing to hide, why can you not tell me these, answer the simple question of the route you took.
Smith: I’ve told you. Look, I want this on record. I’ve told you, at least 3 times, the reason I don’t want to tell you my route. I’m not hiding it. The reason I don’t want to tell you, at this time, is because you’ve not told me what happened on that route, that you feel I’m, I’m under suspicion for. Why I’ve been called in today. Because obviously, you think something happened on that, my, my trip out today. My simple walk out to buy a newspaper has turned into something, which you feel has, has got some significance to you, but has no significance to me.
MacLeod: I suggest, Mr Smith, it wasn’t just a simple walk to buy a newspaper. It was a …
Smith: What happened then on this route?
MacLeod: This is what I want you to tell me.
Smith: I want, no, I, absolutely nothing happened.
MacLeod: I’m giving you the opportunity to tell me …
Smith: Look, if I could tell you something happened, I, I would love to do that. I would love to say I, I’d kicked a dog, or something, but nothing happened.
MacLeod: If nothing happened then, why can you not answer the simple question.
Smith: Because you, you are trying to make me say something, which I, I don’t understand your reasons for, and I’m sorry, I need to have reasons, otherwise I can’t make a comment. I don’t comment on that question.
MacLeod: I’m not asking you to say anything that’s unreasonable.
Smith: I’m sure you’re not. I’m not being unreasonable.
MacLeod: But I think you are, because I can see no reason why you can’t …
Smith: Look, you have me here to answer questions. Now, I’m trying to answer the questions to the best of my ability, without landing myself in something that I don’t even understand. Now, put yourself in my position, would you want me to say …
MacLeod: Listen, I’m asking the questions here Mr Smith. I want you once again, to tell me the route that you took, from your home address to the point that you were arrested by police. If you feel there’s something that, that might incriminate you, then it is your right to remain silent. Of course it is.
Smith: I’ll, I’ll remain silent then, because until you give me the information I require, I cannot answer that question, I’m sorry.
MacLeod: So you feel that that question, er, places you in a position that might incriminate yourself?
Smith: No, no it does not. No it does not
MacLeod: Well, in that case answer the question.
Smith: It does not, but what I’m saying is you’re going to then use that information to say, maybe I was where I shouldn’t be, and I, I, I don’t know. I don’t know what you’re going to say.
MacLeod: I want you to tell me. I’m not going to twist the, er, facts to suit myself.
Smith: No, I think you are.
MacLeod: I, I know, I know what the facts are. But I want you …
Smith: You do not know what the facts are, because, obviously, if you knew what the facts were you would give me the explanation that I’m asking for. What, what am I supposed to have done this morning. I mean, how can, how can I, I’m not going to say I did something that I didn’t, if that’s what you think. Because, as far as I’m concerned, all I did was to walk and to buy a paper. I did nothing else. I didn’t talk to anybody. I didn’t have a conversation with anybody, and that is the truth. I mean, I’m not lying about that. I’m, I really am seriously saying, I did not communicate with anybody. I did not pass any information this morning to anybody. If that’s what you think I did, I’m sure ...
MacLeod: I’m not suggesting that at all. I’m merely asking …
Smith: Well, I think you are, and that’s why I’m not going to discuss my route, because I think you had a stooge there, who was waiting for me. That, that must be the answer. You think that …
MacLeod: A stooge waiting for you for what? For what purpose?
Smith: Why, why else, why else won’t you tell me why, why this route is important?
MacLeod: For what purpose would you give.
Smith: I don’t know. I do not know.
MacLeod: I mean, it seems extraordinary. You go out in the morning to buy a newspaper, and you can’t remember the journey you took from your home address to the newsagent’s.
Smith: I’m not saying that I couldn’t remember the journey. I’m saying I’m not telling you.
MacLeod: Oh yes, you’re conveniently forgetting it, or refusing to answer that?
Smith: I know, I know exactly the way I went. I will tell you in great detail probably, where I went.
MacLeod: Well, clearly I would expect you to.
Smith: But why should I? Why should I, when you’re not.
MacLeod: Because I want you …
Smith: … giving me the information that I’ve asked from you …
MacLeod: I want you to help us with our enquiries, to get to the bottom of this.
Smith: Ok. Well ask me some sensible questions that I can answer to help you.
MacLeod: I’m not going to get away from this central question.
Smith: It’s not a central point, I’m sorry.
MacLeod: Well it is to me.
Smith: And how is it central to you?
MacLeod: That’s not a matter for you. I want you to answer my question. If it’s not, if you feel it’s a matter that’s going to incriminate you …?
Smith: Shall I answer this question? ’Cause this guy is, is, he won’t let me off this hook, this point. I don’t know what he’s getting at.
MacLeod: I’m sorry, I want, I’m going, I’m going, I’m going to have to dwell on this, because I feel the reason that you’re not coming up front with the, with the answer, is because you feel, at the back of your mind, you’ve got something to hide.
Smith: But, what have I got to hide?
MacLeod: Well, I don’t know. That’s what I’m trying to establish. Otherwise you …
Smith: I’ve told you to the best of my ability.
MacLeod: You would answer the question, if you didn’t feel it was going to put you in a difficult position.
Jefferies: My client’s asking me for advice on this point. Might I have a consultation with him about this point.
Smith: No I, if he wants me …
Jefferies: You heard him asking, indicate to me that he wants to speak to me about this matter.
Smith: I think, really, for some reason, this, this route I took may be important. I don’t know.
Beels: Right, at this stage, Mr Smith has requested consultation with his solicitor, so I’m concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add?
Smith: No.
Beels: Clarify? At the end of this tape, er, interview, I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape. Will you do so?
Smith: I suppose I will.
Beels: I have here a form, explaining your rights of access to that tape. You may have had one already. Ok. I’m now turning off the machine. The time is 6:41.