INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 5

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 9^th August 1992

Time commenced: 14:08 Time concluded: 14:38

Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, also from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Beels: Other persons present are …

Smith: Michael Smith.

Beels: And you are sir …

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor, from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room number 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I will give you, sir, a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 9^th August, and the time by my watch is 2, 8 minutes past 2, in the afternoon. I must caution you Mr Smith. You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Smith: Yes I do.

Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence.

Smith: No comment.

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and you have your solicitor here with you. Is that correct?

Smith: That’s correct.

Beels: I understand you’ve been asked if you wish to have refreshments, something to eat, whilst in custody since yesterday, and today sir, you declined. Is that correct?

Smith: No comment.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, you’ve obviously had time to reflect on the interviews that took place yesterday. I’m aware that you did exercise your right to silence on certain points, and I would like, just very briefly, to go back on one particular, on one particular point for clarification. I was asking you yesterday about the telephone call, that you had in the morning from a man named George. You told me that it was a mis-directed, a mis-routed telephone number. Is that still your answer?

Smith: No comment

MacLeod: Right. I’m now going to play for you a tape recording, that will prove that the answers that you gave me yesterday, to that very question, will prove that you were lying. I am going to enter this as exhibit SB/1.

Beels: SJB/4 sir.

MacLeod: SJB/4

Beels: I am taking a cassette tape out of its box, and putting it into a machine which is in front of the four of us. I’m now switching it on. (Telephone conversation commences).

PAMELA SMITH: Hello

CALLER (GEORGE): Hello, is it Michael Smith?

PAMELA SMITH: Er, he lives here, who’s calling?

CALLER: This is George.

PAMELA SMITH: Who?

CALLER: George.

PAMELA SMITH: Just one moment.

MICHAEL SMITH: Hello.

CALLER: Hello, is it Michael Smith?

MICHAEL SMITH: Yes.

CALLER: Hello, I am George speaking. I am colleague of your old friend Victor. Do you remember him?

MICHAEL SMITH: Yes.

CALLER: Ok, that’s good. Now listen. It is very urgent for me to talk to you.

MICHAEL SMITH: Yeah.

CALLER: You understand?

MICHAEL SMITH: Yes.

CALLER: Ok, Ok, but I think maybe we do this another way.

MICHAEL SMITH: Ok.

CALLER: You understand?

MICHAEL SMITH: Yeah.

CALLER: Ok. I think there is telephone at the corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue. You know this?

MICHAEL SMITH: Yes, yes.

CALLER: Ok, you can maybe be there in 15 minutes?

MICHAEL SMITH: Ok.

CALLER: Yes,

MICHAEL SMITH: Yes.

CALLER: Ok. This is corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue.

MICHAEL SMITH: Ok.

CALLER: 15 minutes, very important.

MICHAEL SMITH: Ok.

CALLER: Ok. I ring you there. Bye, bye.

MICHAEL SMITH: Bye

Beels: I am removing the tape from the recorder, and I will be producing this as, I said before, as exhibit SJB/4. I will sign the tape seal now, and as part of the sealing process, Mr Smith, I would ask you would you sign.

Smith: No, I’m not going to sign that tape.

Beels: Would you sign it sir.

MacLeod: Right Mr Smith, you’ve had an opportunity to hear that tape. Have you got any comment to make?

Smith: I don’t think I have a comment, no.

MacLeod: But does that not demonstrate, that you clearly lied in your answer to me yesterday afternoon, when I asked you ...

Smith: I do not think that was the case.

MacLeod: You took instructions from a man named George.

Smith: We discussed this yesterday. I don’t know any man named George.

MacLeod: Well you’ve just spoken to him, did you not?

Smith: You’ve got a tape there, I don’t know.

MacLeod: Well that was your voice, that was your wife who answered the telephone.

And he gave you instructions to go to the corner of Durlston Road.

Smith: Well, I explained yesterday, I humoured the guy. I’m not interested in what he had to say. I didn’t act on his instructions, you know quite clearly I didn’t.

MacLeod: It’s blatantly obvious that you knew the nature of the call. You didn’t stop to ask a question, well who is it, or what’s this all about. You immediately responded.

Smith: I’ve got no comments on that tape.

MacLeod: Right, you’ve got no comment. You left your house, and you did go to that telephone box at the corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue. You entered the telephone box.

Smith: Durlston Road?

MacLeod: Yes, that’s where the telephone box is.

Smith: I didn’t go anywhere near Durlston Road.

MacLeod: I’ve got proof that you did.

Smith: I don’t even know where Durlston Road is. It’s parallel to St Albans Road. It’s nowhere near where I went.

MacLeod: You stayed there for a while inside the telephone box, obviously awaiting a telephone call, I would suggest. After that, you left the telephone box and you began

jogging up to the vicinity of another telephone box on the corner of Latchmere Lane and Tudor drive. You didn’t enter the telephone box, but you remained in the vicinity. Are you saying this happened, or didn’t happen?

Smith: I’m saying that it didn’t happen.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. I’m putting it to you, that this is the field craft that your KGB handler, Victor Oshchenko, taught you.

Smith: We did not talk about Oshchenko, it was called Ochenko?

MacLeod: That is the correct pronunciation is it?

Smith: Ochenko, that’s the name we used yesterday, not Oshchenko.

MacLeod: Well, you’ll forgive, if I haven’t got the correct pronunciation.

Smith: I don’t know what’s it … I remember Ochenko.

MacLeod: Oshchenko. I am telling you that that is the instructions that, during the time that you were trained by the KGB, that is the type of instruction that you received...

Smith: I was not trained by the KGB, as you put it, and I’ve got no comment on this, because I think you are, you’re fabricating this now.

MacLeod: I’ve got no reason to fabricate Mr Smith.

You’ve got every reason to give a satisfactory explanation, as to your behaviour yesterday, and the reason why you lied to me in interviews.

Smith: We had a full discussion on this matter yesterday, and I said no comment on any further discussions on this.

MacLeod: With regard to that particular point?

Smith: That’s correct.

MacLeod: You are aware, from the changes that have taken place in the Soviet Union in recent times, there have been quite a number of former KGB, KGB people, passing information to Western Intelligence, even selling it for financial gain.

Smith: How would I possibly have any comment on that, how would I know that?

MacLeod: Well, it’s in the public domain.

Smith: I don’t ...

MacLeod: Reported by the media. I would have thought, you say that’s not a matter that would excite your interest?

Smith: I don’t think so.

MacLeod: Are you saying that you’re not aware of the changes that have taken place in the Soviet Union?

Smith: How could I possibly be aware of what’s going on in another country?

MacLeod: I’m talking about the collapse of communism. I’m talking about the collapse of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. You are aware of that, you are an intelligent man.

Smith: Well yes, I’m very much in favour of the way things are going.

MacLeod: And you will be aware also, of the archivage leaks that have taken place over the last number of ...

Smith: I’m not aware of that.

MacLeod: You’re not? Would it surprise you, given the changes?

Smith: It wouldn’t surprise me, no, but I’m not aware of it.

MacLeod: And it wouldn’t surprise you either, that there have been quite a number of defections, people who formerly worked for the KGB?

Smith: It’s pointless you asking me that sort of question, because how would I know?

MacLeod: Well, I think you would know, and I think, and I put it to you that we believe considerable…

Smith: Well, you’ve got to give me the reason, why you think I should know that, that sort of fact?

MacLeod: Well the reason is, and I thought I’d made this clear to you, the reason is that you were recruited by the KGB as an agent back in the early 70’s. Are you saying that’s a lie?

Smith: I’m saying that is definitely a lie.

MacLeod: If it wasn’t the early 70’s, when was it?

Smith: It wasn’t ever.

MacLeod: Are you saying you’ve never met any Russians?

Smith: I’m not saying that, no.

MacLeod: Did you attend a trade union meeting?

Smith: Well, I’m not going to answer any more questions on that type of subject, I’m sorry.

MacLeod: Well, does it cause you some discomforture?

Smith: No, it doesn’t, but I see no point in discussing something that happened that long ago.

MacLeod: Can I put it this way, you’re here on suspicion of having committed a serious breach of national security. I would suggest that, if I’ve got it wrong, or if the intelligence people have got it wrong, then it’s open to you to correct any wrong assumptions that we may have. I’m asking you simple questions about your background, whether or not you ever had any meetings with Russians, perhaps even in an innocent context, but I’m giving you the opportunity to tell me whether you ever did meet a Russian. Did you ever meet any Russians?

Smith: Why are we talking about Russians, why not other people?

MacLeod: I’m talking about the Russians, because this is central to this investigation. I’ll repeat the question. Did you ever meet any Russians?

Smith: I’m sorry, I’d better not comment on that.

MacLeod: You’re not commenting because you can’t remember?

Smith: It’s partly that, but it’s partly because I don’t think it’s right to discuss this until you put more cards on the table.

MacLeod: I thought I’d put my cards on the table, because I told you, that you were ...

Smith: I don’t think. so. We have not yet reached the meat of your case, whatever your case is.

MacLeod: Well clearly.

Smith: I’m sorry, until we get to that point, I think I’d better not comment any further.

MacLeod: You have a duty as a citizen to help the police investigate ...

Smith: That’s why I’m here, I think.

MacLeod: Yes, well, unless you had something to hide.

Smith: I’m not saying I’ve got anything to hide.

MacLeod: Well, I cannot see, for the life of me, why if you had, for example, an innocent encounter or chance meeting or introduction during your trade union days, because we do know of that, to a Russian acquaintance. I would see nothing terribly suspicious about that. Are you saying that that did not happen?

Smith: I’m not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: Are you saying that you were never recruited by the Russian Intelligence Service, in other words the KGB, to work for them?

Smith: I’m not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: You’re not commenting because it’s right, or because it might incriminate you?

Smith: I’m not commenting any further.

Beels: Mr Smith, did you ever meet with a Russian called Victor at any stage.

Smith: No comment.

Beels: Did you ever meet with a Victor, an East European, who you lunched with regularly?

Smith: No comment. I’ve explained the only Victor I know, and he’s a Spaniard.

MacLeod: I have to say, that I’m totally puzzled why a former KGB officer, who has now defected if you like, who is now co-operating with Western Intelligence, and is here

in this country, and co-operating with us directly, why that man should say to us that Michael Smith, a man who formerly worked for Thorn EMI, in a position where he had access to classified material, why would they say, or why would he say that you worked for them, if that wasn’t true? Why should he concoct ...

Smith: You’ll have to ask him.

MacLeod: We have asked him. We have no reason to question the veracity of what he’s saying to us. I’m giving you the opportunity to put your side. Can you say whether you ever met a man called Victor Oshchenko.

Smith: No comment.

MacLeod: Victor Oshchenko, or Vic as you knew him?

Smith: I didn’t know anybody as Vic.

MacLeod: And he referred to you as Mike. You met regularly, did you not, way back in the mid 70’s.

Smith: I’ve never referred to anybody as Vic, and I know that is absolutely true. As I told you before, the only person I ever knew called Victor was a Spaniard, and I call him Victor, because I think it’s more polite.

So if anybody had said I called them Vic, that is definitely untrue, because I do not like the name Vic. I would never call Victor, Vic. It sounds like cough medicine.

MacLeod: However, you addressed each other, this man, a former KGB Intelligence Officer, has accused you of working for them in the mid 1970’s. In fact, I’ll be specific, from about the start of, from May ’76, when you went to work for Thorn EMI. You went to Thorn EMI.

Smith: I did not work at Thorn EMI in May ’76, and that is not true.

Beels: Would July ’76 be correct?

Smith: That’s more correct.

MacLeod: July ’76. Right, I beg your pardon, July ’76. What prompted you to leave your former employment, to go to work for Thorn EMI?

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

MacLeod: I mean, that’s a fairly … Was it for career development, promotion, was it for financial ...

Smith: We’ll discuss it later, when the time comes, I think.

MacLeod: Just as a point of clarification. I see no reason in asking you a fairly simple question. I don’t think …

Smith: I’ve got nothing to hide about it, but I don’t see any reason to discuss it now, so I’m not going to comment at this stage.

MacLeod: You don’t want to comment, even though a simple question like that just might help to throw some light on this whole business, as to whether or not there is any substance to this allegation. It would give you the opportunity of putting your case.

Smith: No, I’ll put my case when the time comes.

MacLeod: It’s suggested, that the reason that you went to work for Thorn EMI, was because the KGB had recruited you. They had advised you, they had advised you to sever all links with the CPGB, the Communist Party of Great Britain, to sever all your links with the trade union movement.

Smith: I think you’re wasting your time.

MacLeod: I’m not.

Smith: I’ve got a very good explanation for what happened at that time, but I’m not going to discuss it with you at this time.

MacLeod: Even though that, that might just advantage, be to your advantage at this stage?

Smith: I don’t think it is, because we haven’t yet reached what it is I’m being accused of, so I see no point in beating about the bush on fringe subjects.

MacLeod: Right. Well, it may appear to you to be fringe subjects, but they’re not fringe subjects to me. They’re very much central to this investigation, because what I’m saying to you is that the reason you severed your links with the trade union movement, the reason you severed your links with the CPGB, was at the behest of the KGB who instructed you.

Smith: That’s not true, but ...

MacLeod: Who instructed you?

Smith: But, I’m not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: Who instructed you to adopt a more conservative ‘life style’. They encouraged you to take up tennis.

Smith: Tennis?

MacLeod: Yes tennis, because Vic bought you a, he bought you tennis racket, did he not, do you not remember that?

Smith: No, I don’t remember that.

MacLeod: He told you to start reading the Daily Telegraph.

Smith: I very rarely read the Telegraph, except on a Thursday when the job pages are there, because it’s a good paper for that. I don’t read, I very rarely read any newspapers actually, it’s only when I feel in the mood.

MacLeod: Ok, well, what I’m saying to you is that you changed your life style, you applied for a number of jobs that the KGB had drawn up for you, and one of the companies that was included in that list of companies was Thorn EMI, and that gave you access.

Smith: Look, I say that is untrue. I’ll say it on the record, that is untrue. But I will elaborate further when the time comes.

MacLeod: Well if it’s untrue, now, why don’t you elaborate now, when …?

Smith: We, I am still waiting for you to get onto the subject of why I’m here.

MacLeod: I’ve explained that to you.

Smith: You have not.

MacLeod: Well I’m coming to it now. During the time that you were engaged to Thorn EMI, you were involved in a project which was classified secret, concerning the British nuclear weapon. Is that right?

Smith: I’m not going to comment on it.

MacLeod: In fact, you were, or rather had oversight of what was going on on a particular part of that project, and that concerned … what was known as the XN715 fuze, for the free-fall nuclear weapon WE177. Is that right?

Smith: I can’t even remember that far back. If that’s right, I don’t know.

MacLeod: Do you remember working on that particular project?

Smith: I’m not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: Did you ever discuss your work outside?

Smith: We discussed that point yesterday. I made a full point on that yesterday

MacLeod: Yes, but I still wasn’t very clear on it, whether you did or you didn’t?

Smith: I think it was very clear if you listen to the tape.

Beels: When you say you’ll make no comment, to the fact that you were working on a particular secret project, is that because you can’t remember that particular project?

Smith: It’s not because I can’t remember.

Beels: Or, because you choose …

Smith: I choose not to discuss it with you people. Who I don’t know your, your security clearance, or whether I’m overstepping the mark by discussing it at all. So I choose not to comment.

MacLeod: Can I just put this to your solicitor then, if it is of any reassurance, your solicitor will be able to ascertain that, from somebody other than me, as to whether or not I have got or we have got that security clearance. I can assure you.

Smith: That would help. I don’t know whether, even, if my solicitor should be hearing this. Sorry, I think we’re in very dodgy ground here, and I think it’s better not to comment on it.

MacLeod: So, even if your solicitor was given an unequivocal assurance by somebody in authority, that we have got that clearance, you still wouldn’t be prepared to …?

Smith: Well, the people I’ve dealt with, are in a different department to you. Sorry, I don’t know the relationship between you.

MacLeod: Do you realise the type of work that we do?

Smith: I have a vague idea of what you do.

MacLeod: I’m sure you have. I can assure you we’ve got high security clearance, so I’ll come back to this again. This fuze, for the free-fall nuclear weapon, was something that Victor had tasked you to receive.

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

MacLeod: You made a sketch, or you made a mental note and then you made a sketch, and then you photographed the sketch, and then you handed the film to Victor.

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

MacLeod: I’m sure you haven’t, because that’s the central thrust of this investigation. That is what Victor is saying about you.

Smith: But if that’s true, you must have this film, and you can show it to us, and we can discuss that. Because otherwise, you’re just dealing with a hypothetical situation, and I want to see the evidence, so we can discuss the evidence, and I will confirm or not what I see.

MacLeod: Can I just ask you when you, um, when it was that you visited Vienna?

Smith: I’ve got no comment.

Beels: Have you ever visited Vienna?

Smith: No comment

Beels: It’s a simple question, Mr Smith. Have you been to Vienna?

Smith: Well, I don’t want to get involved in arguments, discussions about things which are not pertinent to the heart of this case, and that’s what I want to do, I want to get this over as quickly as possible. I want to discuss what it is that I am supposed to have done, and then we can sort it out.

Beels: I think it has now been made clear, has it not.

Smith: No it has not.

MacLeod: This is pertinent to the heart of this case.

Smith: Well, Ok, what you, the nearest we have got to it is you are talking about a film. Now I want to see, this film is obviously very important evidence.

MacLeod: This is only one aspect of the matter which is under investigation, only one aspect.

Smith: You said this was the heart of it.

MacLeod: That is perhaps the most crucial.

Smith: What is supposed to be on this film?

MacLeod: That disclosure was highly damaging to Western Security, to our national security, and you betrayed those secrets to the KGB.

Smith: Let us look at this film, and we can discuss this.

MacLeod: Do you agree, or do you not agree. You betrayed those secrets to the KGB?

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that, we’re discussing something here, about a film.

MacLeod: Is it no comment, because it’s outside your knowledge, or it’s no comment because it might incriminate you?

Smith: I’ve just no comment to make while we’re discussing things in this manner, but I thought we were here to discuss something that we could put on the table, and say, “that’s what you’ve done”, and I don’t see that evidence being presented in a way that I can accept it. Surely, if it was the other way round, you would be the same with me.

MacLeod: When I asked you earlier on, about that telephone conversation that you had yesterday morning, you said put your cards on the table. You asked me, or you told me, you didn’t know what that telephone conversation was all about, you dismissed it lightly, as if it was a mis-directed call.

Smith: I was just joking with my wife at the time, it was nothing.

MacLeod: But you lied then to me.

Smith: Did I lie?

MacLeod: You lied, you told me first off that it was some mis-directed call, mis-routed call. You picked it up, and it was some raving ...

Smith: Well you can hear the, would you call that man, er ...

MacLeod: But there was no indication from you, during that conversation, that it was, the purpose of the telephone call was other than to convey a message to you, to go to a certain venue, at a certain time. Now you ask me to put my cards on the table. I’ve put my cards on the table. Can you account for that.

Smith: I can’t account for that, because I don’t know who George is. We discussed all this yesterday. Now, George may be a friend of yours, I don’t know. Maybe you’ve asked George to ring me up to incriminate me.

MacLeod: But why would I do that?

Smith: Well, who is George?

MacLeod: Well, that’s what I would like to ask you?

Smith: I would like to know who George is, because I certainly don’t know who George is. I’ve never heard that voice, in fact, that sounds like an actor’s voice to me.

Beels: But you clearly knew Victor, when Victor’s name was mentioned, your reply was "yes".

Smith: I was half asleep. I was joking to my wife at the time, about who this was. I didn’t know who this guy was. Look, I’ve been as open as I can about that call. You’ve presented me now with a tape, which I obviously haven’t heard. I’d like to know where you got that tape from, because I didn’t record that on my answering machine.

MacLeod: What I’m asking you is, was that the telephone conversation that took place between you and the man George yesterday?

Smith: I’m not going to comment, because I don’t know where that tape came from, if that’s a fabricated ...

MacLeod: I don’t think that’s particularly relevant.

Smith: It’s very relevant.

MacLeod: I can assure you that will be produced in evidence.

Smith: Well then, you have to produce evidence as to how you received that tape.

MacLeod: That would be done. You can rest assured on that score, that would be done. So I will go back to my first question. You understood the purport of that message

conveyed by George yesterday.

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that, because this is, trying to put words into my mouth, that I knew something about what the call was about. The call was completely out of the blue, how could I possibly know what it was about?

MacLeod: Do you want me to re-play it?

Smith: You can re-play it as much as you like, I’m not going to comment on it. Let’s get to the evidence, that you think I’ve, I’ve ...

MacLeod: The evidence, the evidence is that that was consistent with KGB means of communicating with an agent.

Smith: Now how am I expected to know that?

MacLeod: Well you should do, because you worked for them long enough.

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that hogswollop, or whatever you call it.

MacLeod: You’re lying.

Smith: We need to talk about the evidence that you’re coming out with, about a film or something of that nature, which is pertinent to this case.

MacLeod: It was more than just a sketch.

Smith: What was it then?

MacLeod: On or over a period of time. Let’s go back to Vienna again. Let’s talk about Vienna.

Smith: I just said that I’ve got no comment.

MacLeod: Can’t you remember that visit. Your wife can remember it. How can she remember it and you can’t remember.

Smith: Your discussions with my wife have got nothing to do with this discussion, I’m afraid.

MacLeod: Oh, they have, they have. Your wife has been interviewed like yourself, under caution, and she has told us of the various trips you’ve made at different times. Well, we’ll talk specifically about Vienna, a business trip to Vienna. We’re just about to change the tape.

Beels: The tape is coming to an end, so I’m bringing this part of the interview to a conclusion. The time is 2:38 pm.

INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 6

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 9^th August 1992

Time commenced: 14:40 Time concluded: 15:07

Other persons present: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

Beels: The time now is 2:40 pm, and we are continuing this interview between Mr MacLeod and Mr Smith.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, if you’ve got nothing to hide, why can’t you tell me about the trip you made to Vienna?

Smith: I’m not commenting on anything, but if we get to the meat of this matter, which is apparently a film, let’s discuss the film please.

MacLeod: I’m not going to discuss specifics. I’m putting it to you that …

Smith: Well, if this is the meat of your case, then I think it’s very relevant …

MacLeod: Over a period of time you sold secrets. You sold classified information to the Russians.

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

MacLeod: I’m sure you haven’t.

Smith: That’s right.

MacLeod: But your ex-handler, your ex-controller, says you did.

Smith: Nobody controls me, but I control myself.

MacLeod: I can tell you the reason that you made a visit to Vienna was at the behest of the KGB. And, can you remember what they did to you on that occasion, or what they asked you to undertake?

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that matter.

Beels: Would you be willing to talk about any trips abroad, at any time during your life?

Smith: Not at this stage I wouldn’t, no, because I think you are going to build some case on I’m travelling around the world, selling secrets or something, I don’t understand the course of that question.

MacLeod: Well, I can’t build a case unless there is some evidence.

Smith: Well, the case you’ve obviously presented, is that I’ve sold a film to a Russian agent. Now, I want to see evidence of what this film is, when I sold it, who I gave it to. That sort of evidence that means something to me.

Beels: Have you ever been to the United States of America?

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

Beels: Have you ever been to Portugal?

Smith: No comment.

MacLeod: When were you last in Spain?

Smith: No comment. You know when I was last in Spain.

MacLeod: You tell me when were you last in Spain.

Smith: I’ve got no comment.

Beels: So you were in Spain at some stage?

Smith: I’ve got no comment on that.

MacLeod: Let’s go back to the early days of your recruitment, and how you were introduced to the Russians. Through the trade union, through a trade union meeting? What motivated you? Was it ideological reasons?

Smith: Let me put it this way. Trade union meetings aren’t places where Russians hang out. I can assure you.

MacLeod: There have been a number of changes taken place, as I’m sure I don’t have to tell you, within the Communist Party of Great Britain during the late ’60s and early ’70s.

Smith: I don’t follow the news, I’m afraid.

MacLeod: But you were a member of the Communist Party, were you not?

Smith: I’m not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: We, you don’t have to comment if you don’t wish, but what I’m saying to you is, we could prove that you were a member of the Communist Party, that you admitted this to your Vetting Officers, that you deceived your employers at Thorn EMI by omitting any reference to your past Communist Party connections, and thereby achieving security clearance up to, up to secret. And it was only subsequently, long after you’d been selling secrets to the Russians, that your security clearance came under review, and in fact was removed, because of your previous CPGB connections.

Smith: Those sort of things, er, I was told at a meeting, at this meeting that I had with my Positive Vetting, I was told that security clearance is not normally discussed with people, so why should I have any, any worries about that.

MacLeod: You’ve got reason to have every worry, because it was because of your ideological adherence to communism. It was because of your need for money. Now don’t forget money came into this. You were paid fair sums, and this is what we’re looking at the moment. This was one of the reasons we asked the court today, to give us more time to investigate your bank accounts. You can rest assured we’re doing that. We know from Victor that you received payments at regular intervals. He has dropped you in it. You must understand by now, that I’m not bluffing.

Smith: Well, I’d like to meet this guy, because he has obviously done me a bad turn. I’d like to get this sorted out with him. Can we have this discussion with him present?

MacLeod: Well I don’t think …

Smith: Can we have this discussion with him present.

MacLeod: I don’t think you’ve done yourself any favours. It’s you who have dropped yourself in it.

Smith: I’ve done nothing to drop myself in it, as you put it.

MacLeod: He has accused you. Now isn’t it a strange coincidence, isn’t it a strange coincidence, here you’ve got a man who is a former member of the Communist Party, who changed his lifestyle back in the mid ’70s away from communism, over to a more sort of conservative lifestyle, who disassociated himself from his previous friends in the trade union movement. Who disassociated himself from the Young Communist League, in fact you weren’t on the executive committee very long, were you, you were only about 7 months on it.

Smith: Executive committee?

MacLeod: Yes, of the Communist Party, the young YCL, Young Communist League.

Smith: That’s a lie. I don’t know where you got that from, that’s definitely not true.

MacLeod: Well, if you weren’t on the executive committee, you were certainly associated with the Young Communist League. In fact, it was, it’s on record in connection with your vetting enquiry, so I’m not making anything up here, and it was at their behest that you changed your lifestyle, so as not to draw attention to yourself. You must have got a bit of a surprise, I’m sure, that day you were out with Vic, or Victor as you prefer to refer to him. You must have got a bit of a shock at Hampton Court, did you not, when you had a chance encounter with Andy Wilson, your old chum from the trade union. That was not very professional for a KGB controller or agent, was it? The way you went about that meeting, not very professional at all, you were frightened by that, and so was, so was Victor.

Smith: I’m not frightened of anything. I’m not sitting here acting frightened, am I?

MacLeod: Now do you understand?

Smith: Look, I’ve got no comment until we get on to the facts of the case. Then we can discuss it.

MacLeod: Do you understand from the gist of this interview, and previous interviews, coupled with what I told a magistrate today, about this being based on the defection of your previous handler/controller, call him what you like ...

Smith: I have no controller but myself. I want to make that clear, I’m not controlled by anybody, I never have been. I’m very much my own man.

MacLeod: Well right, Ok. That, that’s, shall we say your handler, the man who you met regularly, from time to time, in Richmond Common around the Kingston area.

Smith: I don’t know where you, if he’s told you all these, these places I’m supposed to have met him. Then where is the evidence, because I’m not going to discuss something based on one man’s opinions.

MacLeod: Well this.

Smith: If you have evidence to give, then please put it forward and we’ll discuss it.

MacLeod: But it’s not just one man’s opinion, not just one man’s opinion.

Smith: Well, who’s opinion is it?

MacLeod: I, I did allude earlier on, to the number of defections that have taken place from amongst the former KGB people. Now you told me that you didn’t, you only knew one Victor, and he was the son of a Spaniard friend of yours.

Smith: That’s correct.

MacLeod: Yes, and you tell me you don’t know this Victor Oshchenko, and I’ll tell you there was another Victor. Just reflect on that for a moment.

Smith: How many Victor’s are there for heaven’s sake?

MacLeod: Well, I would like, I would have liked you to tell me. Now, just to make, just to demonstrate to you that we’re not bluffing. You probably remember the time that you went to pick up a massage from a DLB, or a dead letter box as it’s known, yeah?.

Smith: I’ve never been to anything such as that.

MacLeod: From a telephone kiosk, only to find that the children had removed the message before you got there. Now, where did that information come from? How am I aware of that? You know that.

Smith: I don’t know that.

MacLeod: I know that, and you know who it was that was handling you at that time.

Smith: How can I …

MacLeod: Think about that.

Smith: How can I possibly know that?

MacLeod: Well just think about it.

Smith: Well, if you’ve got evidence, as I’m saying, put it on the table. Let’s talk about something concrete. All this is, er, the rantings of somebody who obviously wants to tell you as much as he can. He wants to impress you, obviously.

Beels: We’ve tried Mr Smith, we’ve tried to talk about something concrete, i.e. ...

Smith: Well your …

Beels: Your work at EMI Electronics.

Smith: Well, as I said before, I won’t discuss that with …

Beels: You conveniently refused to discuss it.

Smith: No, no, I’m not refusing to discuss it any time. I’m refusing to discuss it here and now, with people who I am not convinced are the right people to talk to in this case.

Beels: Although we’ve given you the opportunity to be assured, by your legal representative, that we are cleared to a sufficiently high level.

Smith: …it’s purely verbal as far as I am concerned, I’m sorry.

MacLeod: We’re not here to argue with you.

Smith: I’m not arguing.

MacLeod: We’re not, we don’t have to account for ourselves to you Mr Smith.

Smith: I don’t have to account for myself to you either.

MacLeod: You have to account to us for your behaviour in the past, if only to demonstrate that we’ve got it wrong, because it’s equally important to us that we get to the bottom of the line.

Smith: Ok, if I, if I’ve done something wrong. If I’ve handed something to somebody that I shouldn’t have done, then let’s talk about the evidence you have for that and we can discuss it.

MacLeod: If you …

Smith: …then I can give you my opinion.

MacLeod: I am not going to come here and put my cards on the table.

Smith: That’s what I said exactly, at the beginning. Until you’re prepared to do that, I can see no further action but to say I can’t comment.

MacLeod: The allegation has been made against you by a senior KGB officer, who is now co-operating with us.

Smith: Well, he had better get his facts straight, because he’s not giving me facts which I can tie up with my life.

MacLeod: Would you not agree, that you would have had motivation to work for the Russians, perhaps because of ideological reasons. I mean, you were a communist.

Smith: I, I have no sympathy with, er, the Soviet Union or East European countries. I find that the state of their economies is in a mess. It is not the sort of place I would want to live or to work, and I, I’ve got no doubt that I, I would …

MacLeod: Well what persuaded you?

Smith: I would reject that sort of life-style.

MacLeod: What persuaded you then? And I don’t think this is a difficult question to answer, because it’s already in the official sort of, um, domain, er, official records.

Smith: Ok, we’ll get to …

MacLeod: Why, why …?

Smith: We’ll get to the point that I …

MacLeod: Why did you join the Communist Party?

Smith: I’ll tell you exactly why. I was becoming disillusioned for a long time, but it was a trip I made to the Soviet Union on, er, it was a youth trip to 4 cities. It showed me what a terrible state the country was in, people were coming

up to me and saying could I sell them my jeans, um, the sort of things that you would imagine more in a third world country, and I thought this is not the country that’s being portrayed to the outside countries. And certainly it’s, it’s a mess, but they’re presenting a ideologically, it’s a wonderful place, and I found that that was the thing that turned me off more than anything.

MacLeod: So when was it you actually visited then, what date would, what year would that be roughly?

Smith: That was in 1975, that was the date I can say I was disillusioned.

MacLeod: Did you go there as part of a tourist, a package tour, or was …?

Smith: It was a package tour, yes.

MacLeod: The 4 cities?

Smith: Something like, I can’t remember.

Beels: Which 4 cities?

Smith: Four cities.

Beels: Do you remember which?

Smith: It was Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev and Vilnius. And the reason I’m telling you that, is because I want to clear up once and for all, the fact that it wasn’t because somebody asked me to leave or become disillusioned, it was what I saw was the evidence of my own eyes, and I think the same went for a lot of other people on that trip. A lot of people came back saying what, what a terrible place this was.

MacLeod: Well I could perhaps understand that, but the people that made up the trip, were they people of a similar persuasion to yourself, who perhaps have …?

Smith: I don’t know who the people. I didn’t know who the official organiser of that trip was.

MacLeod: Well that’s, right, Ok, right, Ok, because up to then, I mean, you did have left-wing views, you were a member of the Communist Party.

Smith: I don’t want to comment on that.

MacLeod: No, but I mean ...

Smith: I went to the Soviet Union ...

MacLeod: There was nothing, nothing to be ashamed of in that.

Smith: I went there as tourist, and I am not going to say I went there for any other reason, because I didn’t.

Beels: Who did you travel with?

Smith: It was, um, I would like to answer it. I can’t remember the name of the company.

Beels: Ok, uh, but who were you in the company of? Did you travel alone, or with …?

Smith: It was with …

Beels: A friend?

Smith: It was advertised, and anybody could have gone on that trip, and I don’t ...

Beels: Did you go with any particular friend or friends?

Smith: I went with a few people I knew, yes. I wouldn’t say they were friends particularly, we just associates.

Beels: Well how did you know them?

Smith: People that I knew from the ...

Beels: Of similar to a, political leanings of, er, was it a sort of Young Communist League group, or …?

Smith: It was a mixture, but I wouldn’t say they were all ideologically interested. Some just wanted a cheap holiday.

MacLeod: So, just to get the chronology right in my own mind. Was it as a result of that experience that you, when you returned to this country, that you ceased to have anything to do with the Young Communist League?

Smith: That’s true, and I think you can trace it to that date. Maybe I might have mixed with the people a bit longer, because, er, I’d known them for a while, but I didn’t have any reason to sort of continue in a determined way. I just drifted apart from them, because I’d lost interest.

Beels: This was 1975. Did, er, the journey you took to the United States, the following year, have any bearings on your views.

Smith: It did, yes.

Beels: In what way, in what respect?

Smith: I was very impressed by the United States. It’s the attitude of the people. It was very refreshing. They’re very much more the sort of people who would want to go out and make a life for themselves. I identify very much the way I feel, and the way I still feel about, if you want to do something you can achieve it if you’ve got the right, um, atmosphere.

Beels: What about the political system, as you, as you saw it. Did that not give you any, er, …

Smith: It seemed tougher than Britain.

Beels: …problems?

Smith: It was, it was more, um, I got the feeling it was much more, um, a commercially orientated system. I saw the lives of the people, or the people I met there, it’s very much more, um, happy, and, er, generally they’re better off than the people in the Soviet Union. There is no doubt about it, and it’s still the case, it certainly was then.

Beels: But the political structure of the two countries, of the Soviet Union and the United States?

Smith: Like chalk and cheese. I mean, I would never think you can compare them on any level. I mean, they were quite different. Much more open in the United States. In fact, Canada, I went to, I like Canada very much. I was very impressed by that, probably more so than the States even, because it was a bit more European, people seemed to be a bit less brash perhaps, you know, but very friendly. I mean, the whole of North America is a very friendly place, I think.

MacLeod: Where did you visit in the United States?

Smith: I visited, er, a friend of mine, um, in, er, Quebec.

MacLeod: But in the United States?

Smith: In the United States? Um, a girl I met on holiday, it was ...

Beels: What part of the States did you go to, West coast, East coast?

Smith: Well, East coast, travelling around.

MacLeod: And what was her name?

Smith: I don’t know, it was a long time ago. I can’t remember now.

MacLeod: That was in 1976, when you went to the States. Um, can I just get clear in my own mind when it was, um, because I’m a little bit out of sync here. The, you went to the Soviet Union, this tour back in 1975, this early mid/late ’75, when you went there. Was it a summer trip, or winter trip?

Smith: I think it was sometime in August.

MacLeod: And how long after that was it, when you came back to this country, when you returned home, that you severed your links with the ...?

Smith: I don’t want to discuss that, because I think that’s, it’s getting a bit more on the ground that I’d like to discuss when we get on to the more serious stuff.

MacLeod: But we are, we are getting onto the serious stuff, and I think we’ve ever got away from it, because I would just like to hear from you, when it was that you severed your links with the communists, and for what reason?

Smith: Look, I’ve told you the reason. It was because I was disillusioned with, with what was being presented to me.

Beels: The trip to America. Can you remember when that was, what time, time of the year. Early, summer time?

Smith: It was about August.

Beels: About August. And what, were you working at that time?

Smith: I’d been working all through ’76.

Beels: Do you remember how you financed that trip to the States?

Smith: Financed? What paid for? I think I bought the ticket on ACCESS, I think.

Beels: Well it wasn’t especially then, wasn’t a cheap place.

Smith: It wasn’t that expensive actually, because I was staying at friends, and they were buying all the food. I took them a few presents over, because a friend of mine wanted some English shirts. In fact, like bartering I suppose. They paid for the food while I was over there, and I gave them a couple of shirts.

MacLeod: So, when you came back from the United States, was that before or after you joined EMI?

Smith: When I came back?

MacLeod: Well, were you working for EMI at the time that you went to the United States?

Smith: Well, it must have been, yes, because I started in July, June? I’m not sure, June or July ...

MacLeod: So you were working for EMI, at the time of your visit to the United States?

Smith: Yes, I’m fairly certain I was.

Beels: Now, you’ve been, you said you’ve been to Moscow, to the Soviet Union. You’ve been to Canada. You’ve been to the United States. Um, Austria, have you been to Austria?

Smith: I don’t want to comment on it, because ...

Beels: Well you’ve freely spoken about these trips.

Smith: The reason …

Beels: I’m asking you about one further trip?

Smith: I want to explain. The reason you were asking me about that time, was because it was a critical period in my life, and I was changing my views on things.

Beels: So what bearing does that have on the trip to Vienna?

Smith: That’s got nothing to do with this period we’re talking about, I thought we were talking about the mid-’70s.

MacLeod: We’re talking about any time. And we are talking about 1979 now. Why should that be any different from talking about your trip to the United States, talking about your trip to the …?

Smith: Because we’re talking here about …

MacLeod: … Soviet Union.

Smith: My trip to the Soviet Union was an eye opener for me, and it, and it made a lot of changes in my life. The trip to the States was very important to me too, because it re-enforced what I felt I wanted out of life.

MacLeod: Well, frankly, I don’t believe you, because your trip to the Soviet Union would have coincided with the time that you were recruited by the Russians. So what you’re telling me …

Smith: That’s impossible That’s impossible.

MacLeod: …is a load of old cods-wallop. You’re telling me that you were disillusioned with the system?

Smith: Well, how could I, how could that be happening at the time when I’m being shown what the place is really like. I mean, it’s not, it’s just not, doesn’t add up does it?

MacLeod: Many people, um, who may have visited the Soviet Union, may not have been deflected from maybe deep-seated political convictions.

Smith: I’m sure there aren’t. I know people who certainly weren’t deflected, and would always see what they wanted to see. But I’m not like that, I’m very much – what’s the word? - somebody who will always, will look for weaknesses in things, and if I can see it’s not what it’s cracked up to be, I can see through it. I’m not, I’m not blinkered.

MacLeod: Well, I come back to this main point. By the time you went to the Soviet Union, you were, about that time, recruited by the KGB. In fact, your visit to America was supported, funded by the KGB.

Smith: That’s not true. I paid for that trip myself, and I can’t see how you could show otherwise.

MacLeod: You’re lying.

Smith: How could you possibly show otherwise? I’m sure, if the records go back that far, I paid for it on ACCESS. I remember paying for the ticket in a travel agent’s in Hook, I think it was Hook, and I don’t see how that could possibly be construed as being paid for by some other organisation.

MacLeod: Right, Ok, Ok, so …

Smith: It’s very important that, but I think that’s mis-leading.

MacLeod: Well, of course it’s important. Well, I’m telling you what I know, so that you are under no illusion.

Smith: But you don’t know that, because it’s not true.

MacLeod: I know it …

Smith: Then your informer has given you mis-information, I’m sorry.

MacLeod: Can I just ask, was it for personal reasons that you left Rediffusion?

Smith: I don’t want to comment on that. I know why I left Rediffusion.

MacLeod: Was it disillusionment with the management? Was it the lack of career prospects?

Smith: We’ll discuss it when we get a bit further on.

MacLeod: No, but I think there is no point putting off, we’ve got to really get down to these issues.

Smith: I said to you look, I want to get straight to the meat of this matter, so we can get it over with.

MacLeod: Well, I’m trying to establish ...

Smith: And you’re beating about the bush on all the things that happened, you’re picking and choosing times throughout, er, this period in the ’70s, and I don’t know what time we’re actually talking about. When I’m supposed to have, have, have created this offence. You’re not giving me the facts on that, so how can I possibly …

MacLeod: I’m telling you.

Smith: Are you saying that, when I was at Rediffusion, I had something to do with this man, is that what you’re saying?

MacLeod: I am hoping that you will tell me.

Smith: Well I can’t tell you that. I’m sorry, because I just don’t know.

MacLeod: Well, Ok, forget the, forget the reason, that it may have been for ulterior motives. Supposing that is not this now.

Smith: What do you mean, ulterior motives?

MacLeod: That you left Rediffusion, to go to EMI, because you were tasked to do so by your KGB contact.

Smith: I’ve already explained that. That’s not true. I don’t want to comment any further on my reasons for leaving Rediffusion. I, I …

MacLeod: But don’t …

Smith: I can stand up in court and say what happened.

MacLeod: This could put, this could clear your position, or could make it, could clarify your position.

Smith: Should I answer this question?

MacLeod: Well it’s …

Smith: No. I’m, I’m not going to comment at this stage, I’m sorry.

MacLeod: Because I’m suggesting to you, that the reason that you left Rediffusion was because you were tasked by the KGB controller, whoever it was, and it was I believe at that time it was Victor Oshchenko. You were tasked by him to ...

Smith: Was it Victor Oshchenko … Ochenko … I’m confused now who we’re talking about?

MacLeod: Let’s not be pedantic.

MacLeod: Oshchenko. I’ll spell it for you if you wish, so that you’re under no illusion.

Smith: I think we would need to have this written down somewhere, because I, this man’s name, er, might be significant.

MacLeod: I think you may have it written down elsewhere, or you may have written it down in the past.

Smith: I’ve written it down?

MacLeod: Well you were certainly aware of it. Now, let’s stick to the central point I’m trying to make. The reason that you left Rediffusion was at the behest of your KGB controller, and you were tasked with applying for a number of posts within different companies that were carrying out contract work for the British Government.

Smith: That’s not true.

MacLeod: You were successful with EMI because you lied on your application form, about your past connections with the Communist Party.

Smith: If, look, if this, if it makes it any clearer. To the best of my knowledge, and I’m not lying, the best of my knowledge is that I saw an advertisement in a newspaper, that was for electronic or something engineers, at EMI at Feltham. I, I applied for an application form, I filled

it in, they gave me an interview and they offered me the job. That was exactly the way it happened. And I didn’t go around looking at different companies to see who I could join. It just came up.

Beels: Ok. I’ll bring this part of the interview to an end, just to change tapes. I’m going to switch the machine off. I make the time now 3:07 pm.

INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 7

Beels: The time now is 3:10 pm in the Interview Room, number 2 of Paddington Green Police Station. We’re continue the interview of Mr Smith.

Jefferies: Could I just ask my client to be re-cautioned, considering the length of time since the first caution.

Beels: Ok, sir, yes. I must remind you that you do not have to say anything, Mr Smith, unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?

MacLeod: Right, if we can just pick up, um. You say that you never met any Russians.

MacLeod: Ok. So you’re not going to comment. Can you remember meeting, er, the TASS correspondent, back here in, er, May 1975? A man called Ozerov?

Smith: I’m getting a bit worried that all these people are called Victor. I’m sorry. I, it’s rather amusing, but, er, I can’t comment on that, because, er, I don’t know the name and, er, it’s just pointless.

MacLeod: Ok. Right. So you left Rediffusion to join EMI in July 1976. Just answer one question, Mr Smith. Did you, were you going there on a higher salary?

MacLeod: You did. Now can I just ask that question again. You left Rediffusion to go to EMI because you were earning more?

MacLeod: Well, I’m going to suggest to you that, that is not the case. You in actual fact took a pay cut.

Smith: That is not true. I, I, wherever you got that information from, that is not true. I’m absolutely convinced that I, I had a pay rise. It may not have been very much, because pay rises in those days weren’t very much, but I started on a salary of I think £3,100, or something. I think I was on £2,800, or something, in Rediffusion. So, it definitely wasn’t a pay cut. In fact, I’ve only taken, er, one pay cut in all my life.

Smith: Rediffusion doesn’t exist anymore. You won’t find this, it’s a housing estate now. I could have told you that if you had asked me. So, it would be pointless ringing anybody up there, because it doesn’t exist.

MacLeod: But the main point is that you, you were making more money by going there, and it wasn’t long after you went there, in fact, in fact it was down at the, the Systems and Weapons Division in Feltham. Was it not, when, when you took up your employment with EMI?

MacLeod: Yes. I’m saying where you were working. You were working at Feltham at the Systems and Weapons Division?

MacLeod: And not long after that, er, you were assigned to the development of the XN715.

Smith: We, we’ve already discussed that. I’m not going to comment on that matter.

Smith: I’m not aware of the classification. I, I’ve been informed by people, er, in security matters at the MoD, that, um, it’s not made clear to people, the nature of some of the work, and, um, so I don’t think I can comment on that. It’s not within my ability to comment on that.

MacLeod: So, are you telling me that you were engaged on a project in the Systems and Weapons Division, which was looking specifically at the free-fall nuclear bomb, and you didn’t know that that was classified secret?

Smith: I didn’t say that. You’re, you’re asking me about the classification of, of the project. I’m, I’m not aware of what the classification of the project was.

MacLeod: Yes, and you were, in what capacity, just to remind you, you were a test engineer there. Is that right?

Smith: I’m not going to discuss the project at all. It’s a classified project, and as I’ve explained before ...

MacLeod: But you just told me, a few moments ago, you didn’t even know it was classified. You didn’t know what classification ...

Smith: Well, you were talking about the project. I’m, I’m taking the project as meaning the overall project, you know. Not, not, um, the bits I might have been involved in.

Smith: I wasn’t involved in the whole ... The whole project involved other companies. It wasn’t just me.

MacLeod: But let’s, let’s not, let’s not widen this. You were a test engineer looking at a specific area of this particular project. You were looking at this fuse, that was to be ...

Smith: I’m not, all I will tell you is I was a test engineer at EMI Electronics.

Smith: Not of the overall. I was aware of the nature of, the bit of the project that I was working on.

Smith: Well, electronic equipment, and, er, not all of that I think was secret. Some of it was restricted.

Beels: But was it totally, er, concerned with weapons systems, or were there other projects?

Smith: Well, you know that, that the nature of, er, EMI Electronics is, er, it is really a military set-up, and, um, I think that speaks for itself.

Beels: Yes, but, I mean, the military will, wouldn’t be purely concerned with weapons, there would be support equipment, etc. But was the particular work that you were involved in, specifically involved and concerned with weapons?

Smith: I was specifically involved in one project, on which I was acting as a test engineer, in which I helped in, er, developing test procedures, and proving equipment for use in trials. Er, I didn’t get involved in anything to do with the other parts of the project, which were, as I say, involved other companies.

Beels: No, but you, you, you must have had an overall picture of what your particular part of the project was covering?

Smith: I wouldn’t like to say I had an overall view of it. I, I saw bits of it, and bits that went together. I didn’t …

Beels: You understood the nature of, of the work that you were on. That it was part of an overall project, and you had an understanding of the nature of that overall project. Would that be, sort of correct?

Smith: Well the nature of it, yes. I mean, I wouldn’t say any more than that.

MacLeod: Your employers might suggest, or not suggest, but indeed state, that you had access to all documents on the fuze.

Smith: That is not true. If, if they state that, their records are wrong. The only record, the only, er, documents I had access to were to do with, um, procedures, and, um, a few specifications on sub-assemblies, because at the time I left they hadn’t completed, the project wasn’t complete. So I, I couldn’t have access to information that hadn’t yet been written.

MacLeod: Ok, but during that time that you were there, during the time you were engaged in that project, you had access to all the documents relating to the fuze.

Smith: No, that’s not true. They were locked away. I didn’t have access to all of them. In fact, to get access I had to go and sign the documents out, and your records will show that the only documents I ever signed out, I think, were, were very minor, um, matters, which could not have given anybody any suspicion about their being secret or not. They, they were too, too far down the tree. The top level documents, obviously were ones that weren’t easily available, and they were kept by the Project Managers. I mean, I had no access to those.

Smith: There were other slacknesses, and, er, in, er, in view of what I was saying before the Positive vetting I went through. I described various anomalies in the security system there, which I wanted to bring to their attention.

Beels: How and when did you do that? How did you bring that to the attention of the MoD?

MacLeod: Well I, I think it’s, it’s quite, um, important in perhaps illustrating the security, or the lack of it, as you were suggesting it.

Smith: I didn’t say anything about the lack of security on documentation. I think that’s what you were talking about.

MacLeod: Well I think you said it would be easy. This is what you told your Vetting Officer. It would be easy to take a fuze out of the site in a shopping bag, because there were no site, er, no checks at the gates.

MacLeod: Well, if security, if you’re saying on the one hand, security was tight, and on the other hand, you can leave a bit of kit like this lying around, that you could walk out with?

Smith: Well, it was in a different building for one thing. What I’m discussing here is that the documentation was locked away in cabinets every night, and it was not, it would have been noticed if it was missing. I mean, it wasn’t something that, um, was treated very lightly. I mean, they, they did on the project I was working on, they did treat security very tightly. I’m talking about a small

part of the company now, not the, the overall security system, and things are, um, little microcosms, aren’t they, where parts of the company …

MacLeod: But. Why would they leave them lying around then? I mean, can you just …

Smith: I, I, I noticed it when I was over there one day, There was, er, one of these, um, systems which we’re talking about was, was laying there, and, um, it could have, as I described it, could have just been, walked off with.

Smith: I, I wanted to bring that to the people’s attention, because I, I realised the implications, they should have been locked away.

MacLeod: I suggest that what you were doing was covering your own back, because you had done just precisely that.

MacLeod: Maybe not, but you may just … You may not have walked off with a fuze, but you, er, made a note of it...

Smith: There’s no way in which I would have walked off with a fuze, if that’s what you’re think. I mean, if that’s what this man is saying to you, then he, he must be an idiot. Because a fuze is something that was very well

documented. If one had gone missing, it would have been all hell to pay. Even if one of, of the assemblies had gone missing, they were all serialised. It was very tightly controlled. They were locked away in cupboards every night.

Beels: So, what sort of items are you saying it, it was possible, or it was likely people could walk out with?

Smith: It wasn’t possible anything could have been walked off with, without somebody noticing, and if, if there’s a record of something going missing, while I was there, I’d like to know about it.

MacLeod: Just give me an idea of the size of these fuzes. I, I mean, is it small, is it portable …?

Smith: I’m not going to discuss sizes. That is part of the specification. It’s not something I want to discuss with you.

MacLeod: I mean, you, you said that somebody could walk off with them in a shopping bag, as suggested.

Smith: Well, you, you can think about the size of shopping bags you can buy, and perhaps that might give you an idea.

MacLeod: Were you, um … How did you feel when they withdrew your security clearance?

Smith: It’s difficult to put it into words. I, um, I was more concerned about my, er, career prospects than anything.

Smith: No, not, not just that, but the fact that it might restrict my, my job opportunities.

MacLeod: Why, the opportunities it might afford you for supplying the KGB with …?

Smith: No, that’s not what I meant. My work in Quality Assurance is something which, er, I hold very dear. I’m, I’m a good Quality Assurance engineer. Previous bosses of mine have, have respected my abilities, and I feel that within some of the military projects was the highest level of quality assurance that I could find, and I was very interested technically and professionally in working in that sort of environment, and that’s the, what I missed most when I left EMI Electronics, was that I could no longer, um, not, it’s not disrespect to other people, but I could no longer work at that level.

Smith: … and to drop to, to something which I felt was, er, a less, um, less demanding or less stimulating environment, and that’s why I wrote the letter to the MoD Directorate of Security, because I felt, er, in some way they, they’d gone overboard on, on removing my security clearance.

Smith: I wasn’t upset in, in a, in a, in the way that people might feel I’m going to get back at them, or something. It wasn’t like that.

Smith: Well, not lost, because I, I had the opportunity. I’d seen what, what it was like to work in that environment and I enjoyed it.

MacLeod: A lost opportunity to develop your skills within that particular environment?

Smith: Yes, but I, I, I don’t look back on it, um, with regret now, because now I’ve moved on. I’ve, I’ve got new skills, and I’ve got new interests, and now that, that sort of environment doesn’t appeal to me so much. I mean, in fact, as we mentioned yesterday, I’ve, um, applied for a job at Ferranti, which was just through the internal vacancy system, and I think the guy wanted to offer me the job. I mean, the way he was talking to me in the interview, but in many ways I don’t feel, if he offered it, I would take it, because I, I feel that would be a rather, um, stifling environment now. I’m far happier in, er, a more sort of commercial, um, consumer orientated company, which, er, would probably be of more use to the country.

MacLeod: How did you get on with your colleagues in, er, Thorn EMI, or EMI as it was in those days?

Smith: Er, there was, um, if I can give you the names. My boss was a guy called Brian Stone. I …

Smith: My immediate boss, and I think I got on quite well with him. He was older than me. And it was no more than that, he was just the boss. Um, there was a guy called Geoff Brown, I remember. He was, er, a, a bit of a, a weak character, but he was quite friendly, and, er, Bob Millward.

Smith: I, I didn’t take them home. I, I, a couple of times we went to places. I remember there was a guy, I, I think I went to a concert with. There were 2 other people there, that went on a course that I was on. It was an MSc. Course, and, um, 2 of the people from either that lab, or the next door lab to where I was working, went on the same course. It was, it was that sort of thing. We were quite chummy, and, er, ...

MacLeod: Did any of these people share your former political beliefs. Did you ever discuss politics at all?

Smith: Politics wasn’t really discussed. The only time, um, politics were being discussed, it was, um, your usual sort of thing - Conservative, Labour, that sort of discussion – and, but I would, would have said perhaps naïve. You know, sort of, the way people discuss things when they’re just getting a bit uptight about the way things are.

MacLeod: So, when your, your, um, past sort of, if you like, affiliations with the Communist Party came to notice, you, you were moved to unclassified work in May ’78. In fact, they promoted you, um, in the EMI Medical Section as a Quality Engineer.

MacLeod: What, er, can you, because you were out of the sort of sensitive, um, security kind of work, of the environment you’d been sort of used to. Just, well, there’s clearly no secrets here, so tell us about your work with the Medical Section. What was it?

Smith: Well, the work was, um, wasn’t particularly, er, demanding in many ways. I, I don’t think the job really existed. I was put, put there really to get me out of the way, I think, and I, I was dabbling in things. It was, it was really about product improvement, improvement of the brain and body scanners which, um, EMI were developing at that time. It was, er, it was quite interesting in some ways I suppose, but I never really got to grips with the job, the way I had at EMI Electronics.

MacLeod: Was, was that because you were out of the, um, Defence industry side of it?

Smith: Well I think it was a different philosophy, a different bias on the work.

Smith: There, there were a lot of problems at EMI Medical, and that’s why it collapsed, and I could see them from the inside, and I, I did my bit to try and help it.

Smith: It collapsed because of all sorts of problems with product, product, er, design, project management problems. It was a management disaster, I think, and, er, they were lucky to, um, end up where they made more money than they lost, I think, but it, it wasn’t a very, er, good time to be there.

Smith: Well, er, as we understand, I mean, it wasn’t promotion. I was being moved sideways to, to get me away from EMI Electronics, and it, it wasn’t until later I found out that that was the reason.

Smith: Because, er, as I explained, EMI Medical was collapsing. The place where I was working, which was down at, um, Frimley at that time, was going to be, I think, taken over by another part of EMI. I was offered a job at Radlett, and I’d just moved into my flat with my wife. We’d just got married. There was no way I was going to uproot and go up to Radlett, er, where I didn’t really

want to live, and, er, the housing costs were too expensive for me. So, I, I and we were, were quite happy where we were, so I, I said to, er, the personnel people at EMI, “can I have a transfer, so I can perhaps go back to EMI Electronics”, because at that time I didn’t know there was a problem. When I tried to, to sort something out, I rang some of my old friends there. They seemed to be sort of, well some of them, Brian Stone was keen, and, er, another chap Phil Beauchamp wasn’t, um, and he seemed to be a bit - because I actually saw him in the street, a bit later than that - and he, he was rather, um, he actually knew, and we discussed the security business, and he was upset because he, he liked me and, er, I think it was a bit of a shock to him when I’d been moved out. So, um, anyway, I was looking for this job outside, er, from the EMI Medical part at Frimley, and, er, I went for a job at, er, EMI Electronics at Woking, and got quite a good interview, and then the personnel people told me I couldn’t apply for it. So, I thought, there’s something funny going on here, and that’s when I, I found out, that one of my bosses then explained it to me, and, er, I was a bit shocked at the time and, er, decided I’d have to take it further. That’s why I applied for the Positive Vetting.

MacLeod: I suggest that Victor Oshchenko put you up to it, to find out why it was ...

Smith: Nobody in, in my life has ever pushed me to do anything career wise. I’ve done it myself.

MacLeod: Well, they were obviously disappointed too, that you had lost your security clearance, um. But when you went into the Medical Section, EMI Medical, I mean, albeit that the information was unclassified, you still continued to pass them information. Rubbish it might have been, but, um, you still passed it.

Smith: I’ve, I’ve never been passing information, as you put it, so how could I possibly comment on that.

MacLeod: So you’re denying that you ever passed any unclassified information from ...

Smith: I didn’t pass any information, classified or unclassified. As I reiterate, from what we said before, I would like to see the evidence, so that I can actually discuss it with you in detail, but you won’t seem to put that on the table.

MacLeod: So, you were made redundant by Thorn EMI in September ’85. In fact, you were probably quite fortunate to have secured employment in such a short space of time. You went to work for GEC.

Smith: No I didn’t go straight there. I worked for a company called Evershed and Vignoles.

Smith: Er, it was a Quality Assurance job, and they have some, er, I can’t remember now, because, … motors, I think it was, one of the things they made, maybe tachometers, things like that. And, um, I think they, they, they made panel meters for the Navy, um, things that go on the front of tube trains to show the destination, that sort of thing. It’s a bit of a hotch-potch of a company, er. I didn’t stay there long, because ...

MacLeod: Well I was going to ask you. I mean, you, you could only have been there a few weeks, because …?

Smith: Well, I’d, I’d already been applying for a number of jobs, and, er, GEC, er, didn’t offer me a position at the time, and, um, so I went to Evershed and Vignoles. I’d been there about 3 or 4 weeks, and this one came up offering a lot more money and better job prospects. So I thought, well, it would be stupid not to take it.

MacLeod: So, they restored part of your, um, rather restored your security clearance to confidential.

Smith: Yes. I don’t think it was as high, but I, I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t really see any proper, um, classified documents at, er, GEC. It wasn’t part of my job.

MacLeod: So, you’ve been redundant from, or rather you were made redundant by GEC Hirst, in July of this year.

MacLeod: When did they indicate to you that you were likely to be made redundant?

Beels: Sir. We’re coming towards the end of this tape. You indicated earlier that you may wish to take refreshments at the end of this tape.

Beels: In which case, I’ll bring the interview to an end. I’m concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify?

Beels: At the end of this interview I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tapes. Will you do so?

Beels: I have a form 987, explaining your rights of access to the tape, which again, I will give you. The time is 3:36 pm, and I’m switching off the machine.